scans_daily

what ever, i don't care, i STILL think that MJ could and SHOULD be the next Scarlet Spider! in my head, she is... and i will DRAW IT!..... maybe... i don't know.... SOME ONE WILL DRAW IT I INVOKE RULE 32!!!

I would Also LIke to reward you guys who helped me with my paper with this video my professor showed us at the begining of class as we discussed Joss Whedon, Feminism and Astonishing X-Men: Gifted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

http://fanboywatchtower.tumblr.com/post/12310564628/so-in-my-graphic-novel-class-at-cal-state

i may be a little bit in love with this man...
*Note: POsted my blog link which has he video because for some reason i can't get the link to embed here...

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From:

deepspaceartist

I wouldn't consider soul annilation 'suffering' so much as 'death without an afterlife'. While Fred definitley has the worst fate of all the main characters who die and stay dead, it is not suffering since one cannot suffer if one no longer exists in any form other than memories.

I will concede that on-screen suffering has more of an emotional impact than off screen. Though I would still argue that Angel is the worst off even if we stick only to he stuff we see. He did get to see his son taken to hell by an enemy and then come back as a young adult raised to hat him by the aforementioned enemy.

From:

valtyr

I don't think we're quite talking about the same thing. When I say suffering, I'm not just talking about bad things happening, I'm talking about their responses to it. There's a lot more focus on the suffering of women, and they cry and have breakdowns and entire episodes devoted to how they just can't cope with the heavy burdens of their responsibilities, and they get addicted to magic and fall into unhealthy relationships they regret and ugh. When Angel can't cope, he murders a bunch of lawyers and bangs a hot chick who then is saved by the power of motherhood and kills herself to save the foetus. When Angel bangs a evil vampire because he can't cope, it ultimately redeems her and him. When Buffy does it, it ends with her all tearful and cringing in her bathrobe all I COULD NEVER LOVE YOU.

From:

shadowpsykie

i could be wrong... but isn't the two instances you named with angel the same instance?

also, the scene you are talking about with Buffy, she tries to end the relationship with spike because she knows its unhealthy. then he tries to rape her, and she fights him off, thats why she says "I could never love you" because she could never love a rapist.

I think spike went through his share of suffering season 7 once he got his soul back.

riley became addicted to getting sucked... ummm by vampires i mean... his blood i mean.... yeah....

giles was tortured by angelus, (and like i said, frequent victim of kidnapping and torture)

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

On Firefly, Mal was an emotional wreck. Zoe pretty much went through the same thing he did and was FAR MORE adjusted to life than he was, Mal was still "Damaged"

does he seem to lump more onto the female characters? yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

From:

valtyr

Yeah, I'm talking about the same incident.

Yes, I know why she says that. That doesn't change the point.

Spike is not a bad counter-point; his basement-wallowing teary angst is closest to the way the suffering of female characters is wallowed in.

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

Yeah, well, Darla would have experienced that except oh wait, she'd already killed herself to save her baby because the primal power of motherhood overcomes vampire evil or something?

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

So? The male characters generally don't have the breakdowns like that.

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

Yeah, once, and speaking as someone who's lost the sight of an eye, it should probably have had longer-reaching traumatic effects than one crying session.

I think he did a lot better job with the women in Firefly, much more range; Zoe, and to some extent Inara, were much more collected and stoic, providing a nice contrast to River and Kaylee's much more emotional stuff. I still don't recall Mal ever having a weeping breakdown or screaming about how he's vile and hates himself while punching his body, though.

yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

...who was the main character in Angel?

From:

shadowpsykie

...who was the main character in Angel?
i accidently left out angel too, come on though, angel was ANGSTY and wesly was in HORRIBLE shape after Connor was taken and after Fred died, he wallowed ALOT AND hated himself. (though i still think Spike is the best counterpoint for that)

i would also like to note, that the episodes you sited, (ie seeing red, the spike attepmted rape scene) was not written nore directed by Joss Whedon, by season.... 5 i think, Whedon was more hands off on the series. same goes for the lullaby episode (the episode where darla stakes herself) true he might have planned the over all arch, and might have okayed the episodes, but that went to Stephen S. Deknight and Tim Minear respectively, as they both wrote and directed both those episodes.

he was far more hands on with Firefly. And if you notice most of the episodes he wrote and directed and had more direct contact with are the better episodes of the series.

i am not saying he is perfect, or he gets everything right, but he is good, and has done alot more for female empowerment than any other male creator ever has. (IMHO)

From:

valtyr

I, for one, am not saying either he's perfect or awful. I think he genuinely tries to be feminist, and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't. I really liked Buffy, and enjoyed Angel and Firefly. But there are problems with Firefly too; Inara's profession is handled very awkwardly, and there's race issues. We can criticise his work without hating him, and we can like his work while still acknowledging flaws.

Yes, Angel was angsty, but in the stoic brooding way. The suffering was quite gendered. Women were much more prone to breaking under the strain, weeping, having to lean on others.

From:

shadowpsykie

hmmm maybe... i didn't see it like that. but it could be because i am male. i really hate going to that because though i may be male i have always identified with females more... (not that i want to... you know... change anything, cuz i don't) but i have always kinda been an honorary member of the "Girl's team"...

yeah i know his stuff has some problems. but he does try to do right (i don't like saying "He tries to be feminist" because that implies that a, he is not, and b, there is a set of criteria for feminism. there are so many different types of feminism and not all of them agree with each other. it is a difficult term to pin down because there is no ONE definition for feminism)

From:

valtyr

Well, I think to some extent perception of these issues does depend on how you're treated - so even if you strongly identify with women, if aren't perceived as one, you're not usually treated as one, and if you don't identify as a woman (rather than with women) then I don't think the messages are internalised the same way, you know? It's just so rare to see women who are the badass stars who swallow their pain and are stoic - I would have loved Firefly that much more if Zoe had been the main character.

Well, let's say "tries to behave in a feminist way", and tries to produce work that conforms to his ideals.

From:

shadowpsykie

I personally think he is a feminist, i consider myself a feminist. there are other female feminists who concider him a feminist. My Graphic Novel professor, who is a female, says that he is a feminist. There are femists that say because he is not a woman and because i am not a woman, We cannot be feminists. there are so many different types and factions of feminism that its impossible to say "This is the definition of feminism"

as far as stoicism (whose definition has long since lost it's true meaning) yeah, i love Zoe, and Inara because they are cool, level headed and kick ass. but i also love Zoe because she loves her husband, and I love inara because she is the resident mama bear (well everyone is the mama bear/papa wolf when it comes to Kaylee, messing with kaylee is just not healthy... for anyone.)

i liked Mal's and Zoe's partnership. they played off each other well.
Purely "Stoic" characters are uninteresting to me... which is why i was only ever luke warm to Angel (as a character, Angelus was far more entertaining... evil but hell he had personality) and Oz (oh he's cute but that does not make him interesting) when his composure broke, when he lost the Stoicism, THEN he became more interesting... of corse when that happened he left... so...

From:

valtyr

I personally think he is a feminist, i consider myself a feminist. there are other female feminists who concider him a feminist. My Graphic Novel professor, who is a female, says that he is a feminist. There are femists that say because he is not a woman and because i am not a woman, We cannot be feminists. there are so many different types and factions of feminism that its impossible to say "This is the definition of feminism"

Okay? I'm not trying to argue with you about who is and who is not a feminist. I'm not trying to argue about the definition of feminism. I'm saying that I think Joss Whedon believes in the equality of women and tries to illustrate those ideals in his work. In my view, sometimes he succeeds, and sometimes he doesn't.

I like stoic. I'd like to see more stoic, badass women. They're not the only characters I like - I loved Kaylee - but I enjoy stoic dutybound types.

Bringing the crack since December 2003

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