1 from Amazing Spider-man 673

[shadowpsykie]

what ever, i don't care, i STILL think that MJ could and SHOULD be the next Scarlet Spider! in my head, she is... and i will DRAW IT!..... maybe... i don't know.... SOME ONE WILL DRAW IT I INVOKE RULE 32!!!





I would Also LIke to reward you guys who helped me with my paper with this video my professor showed us at the begining of class as we discussed Joss Whedon, Feminism and Astonishing X-Men: Gifted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

http://fanboywatchtower.tumblr.com/post/12310564628/so-in-my-graphic-novel-class-at-cal-state

i may be a little bit in love with this man...
*Note: POsted my blog link which has he video because for some reason i can't get the link to embed here...

Comments

[valtyr]

Yeah, I'm talking about the same incident.

Yes, I know why she says that. That doesn't change the point.

Spike is not a bad counter-point; his basement-wallowing teary angst is closest to the way the suffering of female characters is wallowed in.

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

Yeah, well, Darla would have experienced that except oh wait, she'd already killed herself to save her baby because the primal power of motherhood overcomes vampire evil or something?

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

So? The male characters generally don't have the breakdowns like that.

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

Yeah, once, and speaking as someone who's lost the sight of an eye, it should probably have had longer-reaching traumatic effects than one crying session.

I think he did a lot better job with the women in Firefly, much more range; Zoe, and to some extent Inara, were much more collected and stoic, providing a nice contrast to River and Kaylee's much more emotional stuff. I still don't recall Mal ever having a weeping breakdown or screaming about how he's vile and hates himself while punching his body, though.

yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

...who was the main character in Angel?

[shadowpsykie]

...who was the main character in Angel?
i accidently left out angel too, come on though, angel was ANGSTY and wesly was in HORRIBLE shape after Connor was taken and after Fred died, he wallowed ALOT AND hated himself. (though i still think Spike is the best counterpoint for that)

i would also like to note, that the episodes you sited, (ie seeing red, the spike attepmted rape scene) was not written nore directed by Joss Whedon, by season.... 5 i think, Whedon was more hands off on the series. same goes for the lullaby episode (the episode where darla stakes herself) true he might have planned the over all arch, and might have okayed the episodes, but that went to Stephen S. Deknight and Tim Minear respectively, as they both wrote and directed both those episodes.

he was far more hands on with Firefly. And if you notice most of the episodes he wrote and directed and had more direct contact with are the better episodes of the series.

i am not saying he is perfect, or he gets everything right, but he is good, and has done alot more for female empowerment than any other male creator ever has. (IMHO)

[valtyr]

I, for one, am not saying either he's perfect or awful. I think he genuinely tries to be feminist, and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't. I really liked Buffy, and enjoyed Angel and Firefly. But there are problems with Firefly too; Inara's profession is handled very awkwardly, and there's race issues. We can criticise his work without hating him, and we can like his work while still acknowledging flaws.

Yes, Angel was angsty, but in the stoic brooding way. The suffering was quite gendered. Women were much more prone to breaking under the strain, weeping, having to lean on others.

[shadowpsykie]

hmmm maybe... i didn't see it like that. but it could be because i am male. i really hate going to that because though i may be male i have always identified with females more... (not that i want to... you know... change anything, cuz i don't) but i have always kinda been an honorary member of the "Girl's team"...

yeah i know his stuff has some problems. but he does try to do right (i don't like saying "He tries to be feminist" because that implies that a, he is not, and b, there is a set of criteria for feminism. there are so many different types of feminism and not all of them agree with each other. it is a difficult term to pin down because there is no ONE definition for feminism)

[valtyr]

Well, I think to some extent perception of these issues does depend on how you're treated - so even if you strongly identify with women, if aren't perceived as one, you're not usually treated as one, and if you don't identify as a woman (rather than with women) then I don't think the messages are internalised the same way, you know? It's just so rare to see women who are the badass stars who swallow their pain and are stoic - I would have loved Firefly that much more if Zoe had been the main character.

Well, let's say "tries to behave in a feminist way", and tries to produce work that conforms to his ideals.

[shadowpsykie]

I personally think he is a feminist, i consider myself a feminist. there are other female feminists who concider him a feminist. My Graphic Novel professor, who is a female, says that he is a feminist. There are femists that say because he is not a woman and because i am not a woman, We cannot be feminists. there are so many different types and factions of feminism that its impossible to say "This is the definition of feminism"

as far as stoicism (whose definition has long since lost it's true meaning) yeah, i love Zoe, and Inara because they are cool, level headed and kick ass. but i also love Zoe because she loves her husband, and I love inara because she is the resident mama bear (well everyone is the mama bear/papa wolf when it comes to Kaylee, messing with kaylee is just not healthy... for anyone.)

i liked Mal's and Zoe's partnership. they played off each other well.
Purely "Stoic" characters are uninteresting to me... which is why i was only ever luke warm to Angel (as a character, Angelus was far more entertaining... evil but hell he had personality) and Oz (oh he's cute but that does not make him interesting) when his composure broke, when he lost the Stoicism, THEN he became more interesting... of corse when that happened he left... so...

[valtyr]

I personally think he is a feminist, i consider myself a feminist. there are other female feminists who concider him a feminist. My Graphic Novel professor, who is a female, says that he is a feminist. There are femists that say because he is not a woman and because i am not a woman, We cannot be feminists. there are so many different types and factions of feminism that its impossible to say "This is the definition of feminism"

Okay? I'm not trying to argue with you about who is and who is not a feminist. I'm not trying to argue about the definition of feminism. I'm saying that I think Joss Whedon believes in the equality of women and tries to illustrate those ideals in his work. In my view, sometimes he succeeds, and sometimes he doesn't.

I like stoic. I'd like to see more stoic, badass women. They're not the only characters I like - I loved Kaylee - but I enjoy stoic dutybound types.

[shadowpsykie]

i don't think you are trying to pick an argument, i just think we are having a very interesting discussion:D

and i agree, i personally think he succedes more often than not, but he has made some misteps... I LOVE the character development of Cordelia from Buffy through Angel... i thought getting her pregnant... twice... was... ewww... Buffy season six could have been handled better. and more stuff. (my teacher agreed that Firefly had less problems than buffy, of course buffy was on for seven years, and firefly ... half a season DAMN YOU FOX!)

i get you like stoic characters, and so do i to a point... i have a problem with the idea of stoicism to begin with because like i siad before, it seems to have lost it's real meaning. But yeah i liked Inara and Zoe, mostly because yeah, they held back, but you could still tell what they were feeling.

[jlbarnett]

I think there might actually be one real difficulty with him being a feminist. As least part of feminsim is wanting women to have success in life. Joss doesn't want ANYONE to have success in life

[salinea]

The fact that Whedon is a feminist doesn't mean we can't criticize his work from a feminist basis, I hope.

[shadowpsykie]

oh not at all, and i would hope the same goes for any feminist writers, or creators regarless of gender. the world of feminism is so vast and as i stated there are so many different "versions" that to NOT critize the works of other feminists would be wrong.

side note *eep scary glasses!*

[salinea]

The scariest! :D

I'm a big fan of Whedon's work on average, but I do think his works have some issues feminism wise. I loved BtVS, but neither Angel nor Firefly are great (on that account), and Dollhouse is pretty much terrible. Never thought much of Astonishing X-Men on that level, that's why I was curious about your class!! :)

[shadowpsykie]

oh i;ll talk about it. gonna start working on that now. (honestly alot of the stuff we are talking about on here is stuff that we discussed in class. but yeahi got distracted by this conversation:)