scans_daily: Hope says what I've always felt about mutant relations

q99 (

q99) wrote in

scans_daily,
@ 2011-11-09 04:48 am UTC

Entry tags:

char: hope summers, char: magneto/erik magnus lehnsherr, char: professor x/charles xavier, creator: dave sharpe, creator: frank martin, creator: kieron gillen, creator: salva espin, creator: scott koblish, publisher: marvel comics, title: generation hope

Hope says what I've always felt about mutant relations

And I think she's absolutely right. Calling it the school for Gifted Youngster may have helped many young mutants who felt unsure of themselves or bad for being a mutant, but ultimately they're all just people, before anything else, and when dealing with co-existence that's what you've got to remember.

(117 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only) (Expand All)

	no subject salinea 2011-11-09 10:11 am UTC (link)
	I dunno, Hope's PoV to me sounds like extremely wishy washy "both sides" type of "racism is bad m'kay?", the sort that tend to utterly be blind to context and stuff that are institutional, etc. Which, well, it's true we're talking about mutants & whatnot in a universe where people dress in silly costumes to fight crime, but still. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 41 comments) (Show 41 comments)

	no subject q99 2011-11-09 10:19 am UTC (link)
	It doesn't strike me as wishy-washy at all- you don't help peaceful relations by trying to paint your group as better than the other side and being prejudice against them. That's true in the real world, and it's the lack of acknowledging that as Hope did that always struck me as weird. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 40 comments) (Show 40 comments)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 10:34 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

kenwyn89, 2011-11-09 10:53 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

kagome654, 2011-11-09 11:19 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 11:35 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

brooms, 2011-11-09 02:25 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

kenwyn89, 2011-11-09 03:47 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 11:09 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 11:25 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 11:51 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 12:28 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 12:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 12:34 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 12:37 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 01:00 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 01:06 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 12:38 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 12:59 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 03:07 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 04:53 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 12:37 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 01:00 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 01:13 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 11:53 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 12:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 01:01 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 11:40 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 11:56 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 12:04 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

suzene, 2011-11-09 04:45 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

shadowpsykie, 2011-11-09 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 04:58 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

shadowpsykie, 2011-11-09 05:24 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

shadowpsykie, 2011-11-09 05:44 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 05:54 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

shadowpsykie, 2011-11-09 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 06:00 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

jlbarnett, 2011-11-09 11:03 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 11:13 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

batman, 2011-11-09 01:44 pm UTC (Expand)

no subject

minervasolo.livejournal.com
2011-11-09 10:20 am UTC (link)

The whole separatist philosophy is deeply flawed when your main enemy is prejudice. Yes, the safety of the students could be an issue in a mixed school, but frankly, if you're sending your students into battle regularly you obviously have different priorities when it comes to their physical and mental health. It's been touched on a couple of times in the X-men's history, especially when the school was much bigger and relations with humanity were going better, but since M-Day it seems like mutant kids don't even get a choice; if you've got the x-gene you're joining the x-men, one faction or another.

I'd love to see a story about a kid who gets on well in their hometown, and quit the x-men to go back to their friends, family, and amibitions. Apart from Bobby and Hank, how many x-men have managed to complete a university degree (after joining)?

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

	no subject q99 2011-11-09 11:12 am UTC (link)
	The funny thing is since moving to San Fran there's also been more outreach than ever before. While the choice did vanish- IMO for good reason, the anti-mutant groups really went on the hunt to try and finish the job- they bounced back pretty well. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject auggie18 2011-11-09 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	Jean Grey. She left for college during the original run to get her Bachelor's and returned later to get her Master's. Still, she's one of the original five, so... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 03:10 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

auggie18, 2011-11-09 03:18 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)

no subject

icon_uk
2011-11-09 06:45 pm UTC (link)

The whole separatist philosophy is deeply flawed when your main enemy is prejudice.

At the time, as it's goal was teaching the students to use their potentially dangerous powers in constructive and useful ways (rather than potentially harm the population) it would certainly help.

It wasn't about teaching them to be like humans, or deny their heritage, but to become uniquely useful members of society.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

no subject

flidgetjerome
2011-11-09 10:24 am UTC (link)

See, not knowing the context I don't know if she's already had this talk with Magneto, who was way more in the "Mutants are Superior" camp than Xavier ever was.

The talk she should be having with Charles was what exactly what "Gifted" meant in the context of the students versus your average mutant. Xavier's never seemed to have a place for the kids with the useless powers.

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 10 comments) (Show 10 comments)

	no subject jlbarnett 2011-11-09 11:04 am UTC (link)
	if the powers didn't do anything there's little to teach them. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

(no subject) -

valtyr, 2011-11-09 01:06 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

brooms, 2011-11-09 02:43 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 03:14 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 11:57 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

jlbarnett, 2011-11-10 12:53 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-10 08:20 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

brooms, 2011-11-09 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

schmevil, 2011-11-09 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject kagome654 2011-11-09 10:42 am UTC (link)
	Yes, Hope, everyone should just get together, hold hands and sing Kumbaya. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject q99 2011-11-09 11:23 am UTC (link)
	Why yes, that is the end-goal of peaceful coexistence :) A big part of the whole purpose of the X-men. Note that in terms of methods, she's just talking about treating people as people rather than building up walls between them. Content of character rather than color of eyebeams and all that. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

(no subject) -

kagome654, 2011-11-09 02:48 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject icon_uk 2011-11-09 11:58 am UTC (link)
	I think part of the problem here is the compressed time of comics. Xaviers was named in 1963, and kept that name until the start of Generation X. critiquing something as if it were current, when it's actually nearly 50 years old, is never going to work well. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

	no subject q99 2011-11-09 12:03 pm UTC (link)
	True, but I think he did continue use 'gifted' and 'special' a lot in his sales pitches to the modern day. And he is using that selling point to Hope even here. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 12:08 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 12:26 pm UTC (Expand)

no subject

lonewolf23k
2011-11-09 12:51 pm UTC (link)

Well, considering that, when Xavier founded the original school back when Mutants were almost universally feared and hated, something that all of his new students would've had to endure all their childhood.

He probably thought his new students needed to think of themselves as something better then "Mutant Freaks". Build up their self-esteem a little. "You're not a Freak. You're Gifted. And I will teach you how to use those Gifts to make the world a better place, and prove those who fear you wrong."

(Reply to this)

	no subject eyz 2011-11-09 01:19 pm UTC (link)
	Hope gives me hope for the direction of the X-men books :P (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject brooms 2011-11-09 02:47 pm UTC (link)
	Funny, it's the exact opposite for me. #bishopwasright (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

no subject

wizardru
2011-11-09 01:32 pm UTC (link)

And thus the demonization of Professor X continues. MEH.

Listen, comics, I GET IT. Things have changed in the last FORTY-EIGHT YEARS. What might have been acceptable then might be different now.

But seriously, this whole re-writing of the Silver Age is getting a tad tiresome to me. I mean, chastising and patronizing Professor X because of the use of the phrase 'Gifted Youngsters'? Really? Yes, it was code for 'mutant', but it was also TRUE. Mutants, at least as originally envisioned, were people born with some genetic enhancement over the standard human genome. Having a place that caters to them and the learning of the use of those talents isn't elitist, it's EDUCATIONALLY RESPONSIBLE.

Most schools around the country have 'advanced placement' or 'gifted' programs for students who have gifts or talents outside of the normal spectrum. One of my children is in such a program. Recognizing that he has skills beyond his peers in one category doesn't translate into ranking everyone else as 'other'. Any more than presenting educational options to children who are differently-abled would be. WIth the exceptions of characters whose powers can never be fixed because it would change their characters too much for writers to allow (see Cyclops, Rogue, etc.) most of the students at Xavier's gained control over their often very dangerous powers. Anyone see Magma destroy a city any time recently, for example?

This whole conversation has Professor X sitting around as a sounding board for Hope's 'prejudice is bad' speech and being shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, that the problem might be that humans who think that mutants are different. That Professor X and Magneto say virtually nothing in this conversation is annoying. As is Hope's cavalier, "Oh yeah, you're the guy who prevented Mutants from being exterminated by your actions and put events in motion that even caused me to exist and who every mutant team is named for and owes a debt to. Whatevs." attitude. It just rankles me. Is there a scene where she chides Magneto even more?

It often feels like the writers of the X-men are desperately trying to rewrite the pre-90s era X-men and re-contextualizing it as being horrible for some reason. Which is ironic, since so much of that material is what people are familiar with in the movies and comics.

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 11 comments) (Show 11 comments)

no subject

nyadnar17
2011-11-09 01:49 pm UTC (link)

I disagree. To me this whole scene had the vibe of a young black person telling an old black person that they understand why they implemented the whole "black is beautiful and black pride" slogans, and while they are in no position to judge them for it they do think in the long run it caused a lot of harm.

"Gifted" being a code word for "alpha level mutant" has long been a point of contention in the X-men. Mutants with useless or ugly mutation often felt they were treated poorly. Just as darker skin blacks and lighter skin blacks have had issues.

I could just be projecting my own feelings, but I am with Hope on this one and I really like the direction the X-books are taking.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 03:17 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

eyz, 2011-11-09 01:53 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-09 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 06:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

shatners_bassoon, 2011-11-09 08:21 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

sistermagpie, 2011-11-09 08:36 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

schmevil, 2011-11-09 10:03 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

brooms, 2011-11-09 02:53 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

schmevil, 2011-11-09 10:04 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject mullon 2011-11-09 01:56 pm UTC (link)
	I don't see the problem. I always assumed it was Xavier's way of balancing out the calls of freaks and monsters that mutants normally get. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject silverzeo 2011-11-09 02:49 pm UTC (link)
	Or it could have been a code word. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Yeah Hope, I hear ya.... silverzeo 2011-11-09 02:45 pm UTC (link)
	Charles Xavier is a selfish ego boosting jerk-wad. He has been wrong before and he is wrong about everything now. Can't believe the X-Men actually look up to him and respect him. He is just a bald idiot. Heck, he should just leave. Seriously, when did Prof. X turned into Brian from Family Guy? (Reply to this)

no subject

elf
2011-11-09 02:48 pm UTC (link)

Well, "School for Gifted Youngsters" is publicly acceptable and bland, allows the kids & staff to stay there year-round, and gives an easy excuse for a lot of "nonstandard curriculum" choices. But allowing the kids to think that mutant abilities make them "better" instead of "freaks" doesn't work towards fixing the discrimination problems.

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

no subject

icon_uk
2011-11-09 04:26 pm UTC (link)

One of the things the New Mutants encountered back in the day was that they were treated with disdain by the kids at the local schools when they mixed. Xavier kids were looked at as being snobbish and distant, seeing themselves as (sic) superior, whether that was the case or not. (Kitty attending mainstream classes didn't do much to help since Kitty really WAS an intellectually gifted child, but not because of her mutation).

Doug supplies a counter to this when he talks to Dani (in NM Annual #2 I think) some time after joining the team and notes that, BECAUSE of his experiences with Xaviers school; visiting outer space, Asgard and the like, he really DOES feel distanced from the local kids (these people had been his friends forever, since he's actually a Salem Centre local) since he's been taken outside their shared frame of reference too much, and people he had thought of as friends he doesn't seem to have much in common with anymore (Especially as he can't TELL any of them about his adventures), so the other New Mutants are the only ones he can really be himself with.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject stolisomancer 2011-11-09 02:53 pm UTC (link)
	Ten minutes later, Magneto finds her and slips her a crisp twenty-dollar bill. He is still laughing. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

	no subject q99 2011-11-09 02:59 pm UTC (link)
	That would not surprise Charles if it were true :) (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

(no subject) -

brooms, 2011-11-09 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-09 04:32 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

sistermagpie, 2011-11-09 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

notactuallyauser, 2011-11-09 07:19 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

salinea, 2011-11-09 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject brooms 2011-11-09 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	lol and a few months later (~sliding timescale) she ends up siding with Cyke (SO PROGRESSIVE AND EGALITARIAN IN HIS VIEWS RIGHT NOW!!!). I can't with this girl tbh. I cannot. Laurie ftw. (Reply to this)

	no subject crabby_lioness 2011-11-09 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	Context matters, as it is sometimes necessary remind young people who look down their noses at the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. (Reply to this)

no subject

drakyndra
2011-11-09 03:03 pm UTC (link)

Is this the part where I point out that the word "Gifted" is an accepted and commonly used term within the field of education, that refers specifically to students who are intellectually above average for their age by a specific amount (And often do not cope well with aspects of mainstream schooling as a result).

The term has been around for more than 50 years; I always assumed it was Xavier just using an academic term to disguise what was really going on, and give an explanation when asking why certain kids would get pulled from their own schools and sent away.

Saying it insults humanity makes me wonder what the writer thinks of currently in existence schools and programs for gifted students. (Seriously, check out some of the names)

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

no subject

outlawpoet
2011-11-09 08:10 pm UTC (link)

Hope certainly wouldn't know that "Gifted" is a common term used by magnet schools and accelerated programs, but I suspect the writer may not have known either.

(haha, magnet schools. eric should make a joke about that at some point).

Although, to the wider point, I think that Hope might understand Magneto a little better. He has been historically proven more right than Xavier. Their greatest problem hasn't been prejudice (in the legal issues, economic discrimination, bullying sense) but extermination (Sentinels, Registration, Reavers, Ulti-Men, Operation Zero Tolerance, Friends of Humanity). Xavier addressed the first with a problematic approach (from Hope's Askani perspective), but didn't deal with the second in any organized way.

Magneto focused on extermination, and did many questionable things to prepare for the war he knew was coming. Genosha, for all its flaws, is an understandable and successful play. The disaster destroyed it, but it probably would have been worse if they hadn't gathered. The sentinels were destroyed before they could threaten other mutants world-wide. scattered, Cassandra Nova might have been able to kill all mutants. I think Hope can appreciate that kind of sacrifice, even if she's unlikely to go to Magneto for moral guidance, at least she can count on him tactically. Xavier isn't so clear a resource.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

(no subject) -

lilacsigil, 2011-11-10 02:50 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

kamino_neko, 2011-11-09 08:54 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

kamino_neko, 2011-11-09 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

runespoor, 2011-11-10 10:52 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-10 02:54 pm UTC (Expand)

	no subject practicalcat 2011-11-09 07:49 pm UTC (link)
	Tell you what, Hope: Xavier will stop referring to mutants as "Gifted" if the normal humans quit trying to murder all of the mutants at every turn. Fair? (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

	no subject practicalcat 2011-11-09 08:11 pm UTC (link)
	Sorry, that was a little snippy, but Hope really just rubs me the wrong way. Having been part of the "gifted" crowd education-wise, her argument just makes me roll my eyes. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

(no subject) -

liliaeth, 2011-11-09 08:14 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

practicalcat, 2011-11-09 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

jlbarnett, 2011-11-10 01:03 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-10 03:56 am UTC (Expand)

no subject

stillanerd
2011-11-09 09:06 pm UTC (link)

You know, I find it very interesting that here we have Hope lecturing Professor X about how using the terms "Gifted" and "Ungifted" are codewords for "us and them," saying that helps contribute to the problem of prejudice, when she happens to currently be on a team whose leader has been following a separatist "us vs. them" ideology for quite a few years, and whose current stance is "even though we're going to be superheroes and protect non-mutants, we're also going to make sure they're afraid of us, too." Maybe Hope ought to be lecturing her adoptive granddad, Cyclops, instead?

(Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

	no subject sinisterlink 2011-11-09 09:21 pm UTC (link)
	This was almost exactly what I was thinking. I also find it hilarious that Hope is going on about how an "us and them" thing isn't good while she is living on an island that was specifically created as a place where mutants could live away from the "normal" people. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-10 03:38 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

icon_uk, 2011-11-11 03:55 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

q99, 2011-11-10 03:36 am UTC (Expand)

	no subject arilou_skiff 2011-11-09 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	My impression was that the "Gifted Youngsters" part was part of the cover. IE: That this was just a special escalator-type private school. (Reply to this)

no subject

baihu
2011-11-10 09:24 pm UTC (link)

It's funny. I was in the Gifted Education programme since I was in Primary 3 up till my final year at Secondary 4. 7 years of that. You have no idea what being branded with the word 'gifted' does to young kids. It's just as bad as being pariahs. Our classes were small, had the same group of friends in each school which was usually 2 classes in each of the same year.

You get put in a different section of the building. Your curriculum is different. You get put through educational hell because they want to basically force us into being better like the pattern tests claimed we were; and then we the rest of the student body didn't like us because we were special and we different things.

The word 'gifted' does foster prejudice and segregation. I've faced it firsthand, and I don't even know if it was for the better. They, the Ministry of Education, discontinued the programme and reused what they got for a different one. So in the end my own batch was the last batch of an experiment. Freaking guinea pigs.

You can probably tell I'm still bitter about the circumstances...but I won't deny the experience did shape me for the better. I guess.

(Reply to this)

	no subject v_various 2011-11-22 11:43 pm UTC (link)
	If I reeeeally read into it; I see "we are all just people! We are all the same lets all be enlightened and ~colour blind~" My roommate commented about how x-men is a comic written about blacks/gays (mutant analogy) by straight white dudes (maybe not the case 100%, but mostly ya). I'm getting less and less interested in this title. (Reply to this)

(117 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only) (Expand All)

Hope says what I've always felt about mutant relations

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

Yeah Hope, I hear ya....

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject