Amazing Spider-Man #674 preview

[cyberghostface]

Look's like Carlie decided to come back from her home planet...and with a new makeover to boot.



So once again, Carlie's Mary-Sueness is in full effect, having deduced what the cops around her couldn't figure out (especially since this isn't the first time in the Marvel universe that supervillains have killed people via dropping them from heights) and ends up looking better for it with the cops disrespecting her. Seriously, look at that cop's sneer. Poor Carlie, how could anyone hate her?

Of course, turns out Carlie has yet another new look with her only distinguishing factor in her appearance being that she has glasses.

Just a reminder, this was how Carlie looked last issue. This is becoming ridiculous now--has anyone ever thought of making a model sheet for the character to pass around to new artists for some sort of consistency? She's been around for years now and no artist has agreed on what she should look like. 

Comments

[kusonaga]

I wish people wouldn't jump to the 'Mary Sue' so quick. For one, the term doesn't apply here (an avatar for the writer) and secondly, it's always a good idea to make one of your leads look competent (or more competent than the rest).

[runespoor]

Hey, didn't you miss the memo? Mary Sue is "character I don't like".

But seriously, there are so many possible definitions for Mary Sue it's gotten useless as a qualifier. Especially since most leads in popular fiction are Mary Sues by the word's standards, as you pointed out.

100% agree..

[steverodgers5]

Think we should all probably take a moratorium on the use of that word. It's getting used way too often whenever someone wants to throw off some quickfire insults on a character..

[cleome45]

So much word. Gah.

[biod]

TvTropes describes "Mary Sue" as: "An implausibly flawless/competent idealized character". I think people here are a little quick on the draw in this case, but then again it is a another point in a long, long trend, so it's pretty understandable.

[runespoor]

And a great many lead in most popular fiction, especially comics, fits that definition. (And when they show vulnerabilities or flaws, plenty of the audience are quick to call these same leads "whiny", "selfish", or "jerks".)

Tvtropes also lists "Anti-Sue" in their list of common Sues, so...

[biod]

Yeah, it's a muddled expression, quickly becoming meaningless. Maybe we should make a distinction between "Mary Sue" and "bad character" or just make them completely synonymous so at least everyone will be clear on the matter.

[cleome45]

When they have that many variations of what makes a Sue, they're essentially saying that any female with a discernible personality is sentenced to Sue-hood. Which tells me that their classifications are basically full of crap.

Helpful link, courtesy of the lovely women at LJ's feminist_geeks:

"You Can Stuff Your Mary-Sue Where The Sun Don't Shine"

[cyberghostface]

There are plenty of guy Mary Sues as well (although terms such as the Wesley or Gary Stu might be used) so it's not just singling out just female characters.

I.E. Jonah Sr. was a pretty blatant Sue when he was introduced, and I know a lot of people here have called Norman Osborn a Villain Sue due to his recent characterization.

[cleome45]

I disagree.

Men are rarely, if ever, in my experience, tagged as "Stus."

You might want to read that column I linked to. The author does a good job of rebutting your assertions.

[cyberghostface]

I've read it and I'm not sure what changes. Yes, Mary Sue is tossed around at random, incorrectly and inconsistently and at characters who don't fit the trope (i.e. Hermione Granger). I'd even agree that a lot of male Mary Sues (Gary Stus) aren't recognized as such and there are sexist double-standards there.

But there are still numerous characters both male and female that fit the Sue template, and Carlie is definitely one of them. I just ran her through a litmus test and I got a 77 (50+ being the highest noted score).

Carlie would be a Mary Sue even if she was a guy. Let's say Jessica Jones breaks up with Luke Cage, and "Carl" enters the picture. Carl is pretty much perfect, closer to Jessica Jones in general looks and personality than Luke was and gets her in ways that no one else has, and everyone around Jessica Jones tells her how perfect he is. Luke even says "Wow, that Carl is one cool dude--you should totally date him, Jess. He's so strong and honest". Oh, and he's named after the EIC's son. I would DEFINITELY call him a Mary Sue. Without a doubt.

And I've seen the Mary Sue term tossed at male characters a number of times.

I know a lot of fans think Jon Snow from A Song of Ice of Fire is a Mary Sue for example because he's one of the few characters who hasn't suffered devastating losses and usually comes out on top.

I know a lot of people have said that the male hero of the Dragon Tattoo trilogy is a Mary Sue, because he's apparently based off the author, irresistible to women, successful, etc.

There's Wesley from Star Trek, who was named after the series creator and saves the day numerous times and everyone loves him, etc.

Pretty sure everyone has called Eragorn a *huge* Mary Sue.

[cleome45]

This isn't just about Carlie Cooper, you know. I've agreed -- repeatedly-- that the character has her problems. But frankly the term "Mary Sue" is so hopelessly overused and so inherently sexist that I no longer trust anyone who insists that such-and-such female they dislike is a Sue, unless I've had the option of studying the treatment in depth myself.

There's too much baggage attached to its usage, too small a pool of female characters to draw from for overall analysis, and too little approval from the culture at large for ANY female character to be a "bigger than life" heroic archetype. The term can't be applied in an unbiased fashion because there's too much bias --in favor of male characters getting to be heroic "just because"-- already baked into the culture.

...And I've seen the Mary Sue term tossed at male characters a number of times...

If you honestly think --after reading the points Zoe made-- that your "number" (a Jameson here, a Wesley there) makes everything just even-steven on both sides of the culture, then we really don't have anything more to talk about.

Seriously. This is depressing as fuck and I need to be over there now. Excuse me. :(

[cyberghostface]

Which pretty much fits Carlie to 't', complete with every character shilling Carlie to the audience in a hamfisted way.

Re: This has happened before with characters..

[cyberghostface]

Carlie has been in the comics for over two years, in that time she's pretty much established her as a Sue. Stillanerd had a long list of examples from the comics of her character fitting the template.

Re: This has happened before with characters..

[stillanerd]

And since I might as well bring up that list, here it is. :;-)

(Note: this was written back in May of 2010)

*Dan Slott, Roger Stern, and (I think) Zeb Wells have raved about what a great and "special" character Carlie is in various interviews, showing signs of author favoritism.

*There's been character derailment of Peter's other love interests, not just towards Mary Jane Watson, but also towards the Black Cat, Michelle Gonzales (although this is a character with her own unique set of problems, and even in the flashback story in "The Many Loves of the Amazing Spider-Man" one shot, Gwen Stacy. That later story seemed specifically designed to show Gwen--a character who has often been claimed by Marvel and some fans alike to have been "the one" for Peter--as being a meek, ineffectual, worry-wort, while Carlie is presented as a gutsy and precocious wunderkind.

(Which now includes the suggestion that Mary Jane only loved Peter because he was Spider-Man and thus never got to know him as just plain old Peter Parker--which stated by none other than Peter himself. Nevermind that One Moment in Time and even Parallel Lives which had the retcon that MJ always knew Peter was Spider-Man before they even met--not to mention the two times she rejected his marriage proposals--actually contradict this.

*Not only is Peter Parker attracted to her, his former roommate, Vin Gonzales, also had a crush on her, and Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four also thought she was attractive and flirted with her.

*Other characters such as Aunt May, Harry Osborn, and even Peter himself, have remarked just how "perfect" or "wonderful" she would be for Peter.

(Which, of course, continued when none other than the former Mrs. Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson, not only encouraged Peter to go out with Carlie and said how understanding and unselfish she was, she also told Carlie that Peter "finally learned how to pick em" compared to his past love interests, which would not only be a slam against herself but also Gwen Stacy.)

*There have been quite a few instances in which she berates Peter for not spending enough time with her, overlooking her, or always flaking out on her, which, of course, makes Peter feel guilty--this, despite the fact that most of these incidents occurred when Peter and Carlie are merely just friends and not officially dating in any capacity.

*One could say her occupation as a forensic investigator for the NYPD who helps to tip off Peter about various cases shows that she has a role beyond just existing to be the ideal mate--except for the fact this is clearly being used to show she's Peter's ideal match since she's presented as being Peter's intellectual equal who just so happens to work in law enforcement, thereby establishing the two of them having "a lot in common."


Each one of these, by themselves, doesn't necessarily mean Carlie is a relationship sue; but when it's taken together in it's totality, it definitely appears that way. The fact that she also happens to be named after the daughter of Marvel's current Editor in Chief is just mere icing on the cake.

In addition, one can also now include these details:

*While she's about to get a tattoo of the Green Goblin, Carlie changes her mind and decides to get a Spider-Man tattoo instead (off panel, of course) in spite of the fact that she was clearly intoxicated and had already made up her mind about which tattoo she wanted. And of course, the Spidey tattoo didn't embarrass Peter like she feared as he actually thought it was sexy (even though she probably regrets it now.)

*She not only figures out the Wraith's identity but also decides not to turn her in because the Wraith is "one of the good guys," thus essentially saying she wouldn't have any problem with Peter being Spider-Man (even though we've been also told she can't stand people lying to her.)

*During "Spider-Island," Carlie is initially the ONLY person in New York with spider-powers who is using them to help the other heroes and the Ant0-Spider patrol fight the Spider-Man imposters--a fact that MJ points out to Peter which "inspires" him after his momentary lapse of feeling excluded when the Avengers "benched" him.

*Carlie also figures out it's the Jackal being behind the infestation, making Peter think to himself: "of course! Why didn't I think of that?" Nevermind that, as far as anyone knew, the Jackal was still considered to be dead since the Clone Saga, especially by Peter who actually saw him die.

*Also, notice how regardless of whatever situation she's in, or however she behaves, Carlie is nearly ALWAYS being presented as being in the right? Or, if something bad happens to her how she winds up being the victim of someone else's actions? The whole business of her being "always" lied to by the people she loved--which now includes Peter--is the perfect illustration of this.

Again, each one of these by themselves does not necessarily mean she's a "creator's pet" necessarily--it's all these things put together.