icon_uk: (Doug)
[personal profile] icon_uk posting in [community profile] scans_daily
We've heard Cyclops and Logan's reasoning for their views in Schism, and also Hope's rather (IMHO) dismissive references to Xavier's approach.

But there is another group in the X-verse, with minds of their own.



Dani calls a meeting to get the opinions of the team. Sam and Xian have already made their choice to leave for Westchester and Dani is fine with their choices since it's what they feel they need to do).



Even I think Doug is looking a little... Peter Cushing-y in that panel. Nice that it's Warlock who suggests that things might not be entirely black and white, even if Dani was already thinking along the same lines...

Dani does decide to talk to Gus, the therapist she engaged for Utopia a couple of issues ago. He asks her outright who she is choosing to side with.





Now THIS is reasoning I can get behind, and the New Mutants are probably the best team for it.

I was thinking about it and I think the membership has been in more teams than any other X-group; Dani has worked with SHIELD and the Mutant Liberation Front (undercover), Warlock was in Excalibur (during his Douglock phase), Sunspot was in X-Force, Magma has been in two incarnations of the Hellions (one under a different psyche) and so on (Shame Sam's not stll with them, he was an actual X-Man)

And the end result? The team decides to move away from Utopia, but not to Westchester (shame, I still want to see Doug reunite with his parents) and choose set up shop in a three storey house at 1128 Mission Street in San Fransico's. (An address which exists, but which is actually the local Government building, for those who follow such things)
 

Date: 2011-11-12 08:21 am (UTC)
salinea: Sansa squeeing (<3)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Oh, this is awesome ♥ Dani

Date: 2011-11-12 08:48 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
......That made such perfect sense. I'm not even sure how to react.. I want to shake this woman's hand. Too bad she's fictional or else the odds of that wouldn't be 0.

Date: 2011-11-12 10:44 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Now THIS is reasoning I can get behind, -

Me too :)

And personally I think it fits well with what Hope said- treat people as people first.

Date: 2011-11-12 01:21 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Or to put it another way- Hope said everyone's just people. This is how you show that, you go out and meet them.

And nice to see NM with a direction ^^ "The ones who go out and be part of the world," is a pretty good one.

Date: 2011-11-12 02:15 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
The thing I like about this one is it plays into the current mutant political situation more.

Date: 2011-11-12 01:57 pm (UTC)
brooms: the chance of life afresh annihilating me (bb u luv me)
From: [personal profile] brooms
Hope's rather (IMHO) dismissive

and preachy, sanctimonious, hypocritical (since she's staying on utopia with scott and M A G S), etc.

in any place that not the marvel universe as we know it, i'd be giving dani a standing ovation, but this IS MU 616. the onus of making an effort to "go out and meet" is still being put on the mutants and the "freaks" here.

give me a book where a DECENT SIZED contingent of non-caped humans make a step forward and extend their hand for integration. have a regular human create a prestigious liberal school to attend the needs of flatscaners and mutant kids alike. make it succeed. come on.

Date: 2011-11-12 02:23 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-
and preachy, sanctimonious, hypocritical (since she's staying on utopia with scott and M A G S), etc.
-

Honestly I'm surprised at the reaction Hope's thing is getting. She simply says what the stance she thinks they need to take is... pretty much just like Dani is doing here too, and IMO with pretty similar points.

As for Scott and Mags- Scott's the one who started putting more focus on hero teamups, interacting with the wider world of politics, focuses on good relations with San Fran, and so on. Pretty much exactly the stuff she's talking about. Mags? Well, she doesn't agree with his old views either.

-the onus of making an effort to "go out and meet" is still being put on the mutants and the "freaks" here. -

The issue is, the onus shouldn't be on them, but if the other side isn't doing it? It still needs to be done.

Boo on the others for not doing more, but yay on Dani and similar for stepping up anyway and taking up more than their share.

There does seem to be a bit more mutant outreach than times past too- Mayor of San Fran is a big booster on the relations front and the people of the city in general have been more pro than anti, and the X-men are getting invites to places like Avengers Academy.

Date: 2011-11-12 03:58 pm (UTC)
sharky_chan: (supers: dom)
From: [personal profile] sharky_chan
Thanks for stating my thoughts far more eloquently than I could :D.

Date: 2011-11-12 04:46 pm (UTC)
brooms: the chance of life afresh annihilating me (james)
From: [personal profile] brooms
(though essentially, yes the same as Dani is saying)

Really? I don't even think their bottom line is the same :|

Hope's "point" is the rather simplistic, "We are all just people, they are all just people" (copied directly from the panel). Orly? And? Does she think Xavier used the word "gifted" to pitch his school for a persecuted minority because he disagrees with the sentiment? To borrow an argument, does she think using the word special to describe schools for people with disabilities is fomenting resentment?

Dani's point incorporates that "we are all just people" view (because, um, duh? she's not a bigot?), but the bottom line is that, also copying directly from the panel, "PART of the fight is interacting with the world so you can change it."

You can still see yourself as "just people" and isolate yourself from the rest of the world. Maybe because the rest of the world does NOT see you and some of your loved ones as "just people" and you'd rather be safe than risk being blown up by a sentinel.

Date: 2011-11-12 05:23 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-Hope's "point" is the rather simplistic, "We are all just people, they are all just people"-

No more so than Dani's. Both arguments are rather basic and strait forward, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Hope's talking about not building up lingual barriers, Dani's talking about avoiding physical isolation (and been pretty harsh on both camps in doing so). Both are true, and pretty similar sentiments.


-Does she think Xavier used the word "gifted" to pitch his school for a persecuted minority because he disagrees with the sentiment? -

No, but she *does* think it helped played into the us vs them barriers that mutants *do* very often fall into and may help the separation that makes the X-men's ultimate goals more difficult, and that their current situation where they need to worry about representing the race is a lot different from a school situation, and that is a solid point.

-You can still see yourself as "just people" and isolate yourself from the rest of the world. Maybe because the rest of the world does NOT see you and some of your loved ones as "just people" and you'd rather be safe than risk being blown up by a sentinel.-

Point is, if you want to live side-by-side with others, you want them to view you as not setting yourself apart from them (Hope's point), as well as going out to meet them physically (Dani's point).

They're both right, and neither is disagreeing with the other. They're pretty complementary views, so I don't quite get the ragging on Hope. Other than some of her other less well thought out actions might color the perception, perhaps, but she's actually being less harsh than Moonstar here.

Date: 2011-11-12 07:39 pm (UTC)
brooms: the chance of life afresh annihilating me (james)
From: [personal profile] brooms
Dani's talking about avoiding physical isolation (and been pretty harsh on both camps in doing so)

She's being critical, not disrespectful. She is even careful enough - bless this writer's tactful heart - not to qualify her approach as "better", she says, "PART of the fight is interacting with the world so you can change it."

PART. She sees what she's doing as a branch of the mutant rights fight. Scott's could be seen as another branch, as well as Logan's.

Point is, if you want to live side-by-side with others, you want them to view you as not setting yourself apart from them

Tough luck, since the word MUTANT (which is what they ARE and how many identify themselves as) already does that. As does the fact that some of them can fly, read minds and teleport - and these ARE all gifts, whether you name them as such or not, as is being able to play the piano, or paint, or run very fast.

This is putting way too much blame on the use of the codeword "gifted" (which is of common HUMAN usage) and not enough on the fact that bigoted pieces of shit would still hate and resent mutants/their abilities and still be bigoted pieces of shit anyway even if Xavier had gone for -

SCHOOL FOR REGULAR YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE NOT CONSIDERED REGULAR BY SOCIETY BUT STRIVE TO LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH THEM ANYWAY.

... WAIT. IS YOUNGSTER AGE-IST? YOU CAN COME IF YOU'RE AN OLD FART, TOO!!

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Date: 2011-11-12 05:09 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
-
Except Dani is not essentially belittling Xaviers approach (to his face) whilst stating her own assessment.
-

Hope didn't come off as belittling to me. She, fairly straitforwardly, said where she disagreed, and why.


Dani's tone, on the other hand... well, she does accuse both Wolverine and Cyclops of isolating themselves from the actual world. It might not be directly to them, but it's definitely harsher words.

I dunno, I think people are letting their perception of the characters color their takes on the arguments.

Date: 2011-11-12 05:39 pm (UTC)
salinea: (polite)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Having spent a whole lot of time as a X-Man and having lived for a long time as a mutant in the modern Marvel Universe, Dani is also in a much better position to make that sort of criticism.
Edited Date: 2011-11-12 05:42 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2011-11-12 05:37 pm (UTC)
salinea: (eyeroll)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Hope didn't come off as belittling to me. She, fairly straitforwardly, said where she disagreed, and why.
I don't think you can tell someone you've just met "oh, by the way; the work of your life? You could have done it better" (and the criticism is basically nitpicking about word choice) without coming across as belittling.

I dunno, I think people are letting their perception of the characters color their takes on the arguments.
I beg to differ, since i have a pretty positive opinion of Hope otherwise.

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Date: 2011-11-12 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Dani and the New Mutants doing the integration thing works a lot better than Hope did.

Hope's team is full of mutants, there're no flatscans or aliens or cyborgs on her team, nothing but Homo Superior.

And Hope has been doing her damndest to isolate them from the rest of the mutant students (walking out in the middle of class and forcing her lights to follow her out, training them herself instead of letting them train alongside experienced X-men, etc).

Date: 2011-11-12 05:24 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Hope's a newb :)

Hm, it'd be cool to see them paired up. In terms of the arguments they've made, I think they'd be on the same page, but Dani's quite a bit wiser.

Date: 2011-11-12 11:00 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
I've thought from the beginning that if Scott had moved most people back to the San Francisco base, there would not have been a schism in the first place.

Whatever other motivations people have, a lot of the impetus is just to get off that damn island.

(It's a really cool island, but San Francisco is also cool and a helluva lot bigger and comfier.)

Voluntary segregation leads to your enemies building a fence around you and pocketing the key. See the Warsaw Ghetto or the Hopis.

Date: 2011-11-12 11:12 pm (UTC)
salinea: Magneto going *?* (wtf)
From: [personal profile] salinea
What was voluntary about the Warsaw Ghetto?

Date: 2011-11-13 01:07 am (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
IIRC the idea for the Warsaw Ghetto was first proposed by a group of Conservative Jewish rabbis who believed that Jewish segregation would strengthen family and cultural ties.

As the classic quote about most Nazi activities goes, "No one realized it would go so far."

Date: 2011-11-13 08:36 am (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Do you have source for that? I'm curious.

Date: 2011-11-12 11:22 pm (UTC)
shanejayell: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shanejayell
Oooh, nice one Dani. :D

Date: 2011-11-15 09:03 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
Neat-o!

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