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scans_dailyWe've heard Cyclops and Logan's reasoning for their views in Schism, and also Hope's rather (IMHO) dismissive references to Xavier's approach.
But there is another group in the X-verse, with minds of their own.
Dani calls a meeting to get the opinions of the team. Sam and Xian have already made their choice to leave for Westchester and Dani is fine with their choices since it's what they feel they need to do).
Even I think Doug is looking a little... Peter Cushing-y in that panel. Nice that it's Warlock who suggests that things might not be entirely black and white, even if Dani was already thinking along the same lines...
Dani does decide to talk to Gus, the therapist she engaged for Utopia a couple of issues ago. He asks her outright who she is choosing to side with.
Now THIS is reasoning I can get behind, and the New Mutants are probably the best team for it.
I was thinking about it and I think the membership has been in more teams than any other X-group; Dani has worked with SHIELD and the Mutant Liberation Front (undercover), Warlock was in Excalibur (during his Douglock phase), Sunspot was in X-Force, Magma has been in two incarnations of the Hellions (one under a different psyche) and so on (Shame Sam's not stll with them, he was an actual X-Man)
And the end result? The team decides to move away from Utopia, but not to Westchester (shame, I still want to see Doug reunite with his parents) and choose set up shop in a three storey house at 1128 Mission Street in San Fransico's. (An address which exists, but which is actually the local Government building, for those who follow such things)
But there is another group in the X-verse, with minds of their own.
Dani calls a meeting to get the opinions of the team. Sam and Xian have already made their choice to leave for Westchester and Dani is fine with their choices since it's what they feel they need to do).
Even I think Doug is looking a little... Peter Cushing-y in that panel. Nice that it's Warlock who suggests that things might not be entirely black and white, even if Dani was already thinking along the same lines...
Dani does decide to talk to Gus, the therapist she engaged for Utopia a couple of issues ago. He asks her outright who she is choosing to side with.
Now THIS is reasoning I can get behind, and the New Mutants are probably the best team for it.
I was thinking about it and I think the membership has been in more teams than any other X-group; Dani has worked with SHIELD and the Mutant Liberation Front (undercover), Warlock was in Excalibur (during his Douglock phase), Sunspot was in X-Force, Magma has been in two incarnations of the Hellions (one under a different psyche) and so on (Shame Sam's not stll with them, he was an actual X-Man)
And the end result? The team decides to move away from Utopia, but not to Westchester (shame, I still want to see Doug reunite with his parents) and choose set up shop in a three storey house at 1128 Mission Street in San Fransico's. (An address which exists, but which is actually the local Government building, for those who follow such things)
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Date: 2011-11-12 01:57 pm (UTC)and preachy, sanctimonious, hypocritical (since she's staying on utopia with scott and M A G S), etc.
in any place that not the marvel universe as we know it, i'd be giving dani a standing ovation, but this IS MU 616. the onus of making an effort to "go out and meet" is still being put on the mutants and the "freaks" here.
give me a book where a DECENT SIZED contingent of non-caped humans make a step forward and extend their hand for integration. have a regular human create a prestigious liberal school to attend the needs of flatscaners and mutant kids alike. make it succeed. come on.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:23 pm (UTC)and preachy, sanctimonious, hypocritical (since she's staying on utopia with scott and M A G S), etc.
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Honestly I'm surprised at the reaction Hope's thing is getting. She simply says what the stance she thinks they need to take is... pretty much just like Dani is doing here too, and IMO with pretty similar points.
As for Scott and Mags- Scott's the one who started putting more focus on hero teamups, interacting with the wider world of politics, focuses on good relations with San Fran, and so on. Pretty much exactly the stuff she's talking about. Mags? Well, she doesn't agree with his old views either.
-the onus of making an effort to "go out and meet" is still being put on the mutants and the "freaks" here. -
The issue is, the onus shouldn't be on them, but if the other side isn't doing it? It still needs to be done.
Boo on the others for not doing more, but yay on Dani and similar for stepping up anyway and taking up more than their share.
There does seem to be a bit more mutant outreach than times past too- Mayor of San Fran is a big booster on the relations front and the people of the city in general have been more pro than anti, and the X-men are getting invites to places like Avengers Academy.
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Date: 2011-11-12 03:46 pm (UTC)Except Dani is not essentially belittling Xaviers approach (to his face) whilst stating her own assessment.
Hope's comments (though essentially, yes the same as Dani is saying) do have a strong undercurrent of, for wont of a better term, condescension to the tone. Someone quite so young and inexperienced (which she is) saying, essentially, "Yes you did your little best, but here's where you went wrong", to a man who has striven for his entire life to better human/mutant relations is just... not cool. (Did he succeed, not all the time of course, but he DID try the best he could given the era he was starting in, and we saw in "Age of Apocalypse" what a world where he'd died before he started, ended up.)
Dani clearly does not completely agree with Logan or Cyclops, but has the courtesy to disagree with them, without feeling the need to belittle their efforts to their face.
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Date: 2011-11-12 03:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 04:46 pm (UTC)Really? I don't even think their bottom line is the same :|
Hope's "point" is the rather simplistic, "We are all just people, they are all just people" (copied directly from the panel). Orly? And? Does she think Xavier used the word "gifted" to pitch his school for a persecuted minority because he disagrees with the sentiment? To borrow an argument, does she think using the word special to describe schools for people with disabilities is fomenting resentment?
Dani's point incorporates that "we are all just people" view (because, um, duh? she's not a bigot?), but the bottom line is that, also copying directly from the panel, "PART of the fight is interacting with the world so you can change it."
You can still see yourself as "just people" and isolate yourself from the rest of the world. Maybe because the rest of the world does NOT see you and some of your loved ones as "just people" and you'd rather be safe than risk being blown up by a sentinel.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:23 pm (UTC)No more so than Dani's. Both arguments are rather basic and strait forward, but that doesn't make them wrong.
Hope's talking about not building up lingual barriers, Dani's talking about avoiding physical isolation (and been pretty harsh on both camps in doing so). Both are true, and pretty similar sentiments.
-Does she think Xavier used the word "gifted" to pitch his school for a persecuted minority because he disagrees with the sentiment? -
No, but she *does* think it helped played into the us vs them barriers that mutants *do* very often fall into and may help the separation that makes the X-men's ultimate goals more difficult, and that their current situation where they need to worry about representing the race is a lot different from a school situation, and that is a solid point.
-You can still see yourself as "just people" and isolate yourself from the rest of the world. Maybe because the rest of the world does NOT see you and some of your loved ones as "just people" and you'd rather be safe than risk being blown up by a sentinel.-
Point is, if you want to live side-by-side with others, you want them to view you as not setting yourself apart from them (Hope's point), as well as going out to meet them physically (Dani's point).
They're both right, and neither is disagreeing with the other. They're pretty complementary views, so I don't quite get the ragging on Hope. Other than some of her other less well thought out actions might color the perception, perhaps, but she's actually being less harsh than Moonstar here.
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Date: 2011-11-12 07:39 pm (UTC)She's being critical, not disrespectful. She is even careful enough - bless this writer's tactful heart - not to qualify her approach as "better", she says, "PART of the fight is interacting with the world so you can change it."
PART. She sees what she's doing as a branch of the mutant rights fight. Scott's could be seen as another branch, as well as Logan's.
Point is, if you want to live side-by-side with others, you want them to view you as not setting yourself apart from them
Tough luck, since the word MUTANT (which is what they ARE and how many identify themselves as) already does that. As does the fact that some of them can fly, read minds and teleport - and these ARE all gifts, whether you name them as such or not, as is being able to play the piano, or paint, or run very fast.
This is putting way too much blame on the use of the codeword "gifted" (which is of common HUMAN usage) and not enough on the fact that bigoted pieces of shit would still hate and resent mutants/their abilities and still be bigoted pieces of shit anyway even if Xavier had gone for -
SCHOOL FOR REGULAR YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE NOT CONSIDERED REGULAR BY SOCIETY BUT STRIVE TO LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH THEM ANYWAY.
... WAIT. IS YOUNGSTER AGE-IST? YOU CAN COME IF YOU'RE AN OLD FART, TOO!!
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Date: 2011-11-12 07:50 pm (UTC)http://youtu.be/1E9pKU_N15A
http://youtu.be/A8I9pYCl9AQ
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Date: 2011-11-12 08:18 pm (UTC)-
She's being critical, not disrespectful. She is even careful enough - bless this writer's tactful heart - not to qualify her approach as "better", she says, "PART of the fight is interacting with the world so you can change it." -
More disrespectful than Hope, though, who actually gives explicit props to the other person rather than just sorta-not condemning it. I mean, Dani said the two leaders were separate from the real world. That's really harsh stuff.
The venom disparity is what's surprising me here. People are coming down on Hope *hard*, and Dani not at all.
Maybe I should just drop it...
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Date: 2011-11-12 08:32 pm (UTC)Because what they say isn't equivalent.
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Date: 2011-11-12 08:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 08:54 pm (UTC)In contrast Hope is 1/ rude. She's just met the guy, she can't wait to tell him how she dislikes that thing about him, and doesn't let him place a word in his own defence 2/ dismissive. You keep saying how she admitted that Xavier's school had its role at the time, but as people keep telling you; she does so in an incredibly dismissive, patronizing way 'oh it was probably useful at the time' 3/ she doesn't actually have the experience to speak this way from a position of authority. I think she feels like she has to, because she wants to be worthy of her position of messiah Cable and others died for; but as a result she overshoots herself. She needs to learn to walk before learning to fly.
So yeah, criticism as such, even harsh (as you say) criticism isn't really the problem here.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:09 pm (UTC)Except Dani is not essentially belittling Xaviers approach (to his face) whilst stating her own assessment.
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Hope didn't come off as belittling to me. She, fairly straitforwardly, said where she disagreed, and why.
Dani's tone, on the other hand... well, she does accuse both Wolverine and Cyclops of isolating themselves from the actual world. It might not be directly to them, but it's definitely harsher words.
I dunno, I think people are letting their perception of the characters color their takes on the arguments.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:32 pm (UTC)Hope LECTURES Xavier on the true meaning of mutantcy to a man who has dedicated his life doing more than just about anyone to keep mutants alive for the past... Well, Lord knows how long in "real" MU time.
The tone IS important here, yes, Dani is more direct, but she's not telling Xavier that he's out of date. She's having an honest discussion with her therapist. She's also not saying that Logan and Scott are wrong, just that she doesn't agree with their choices.
Dani shows respect to people she knows well. Hope shows no real respect for someone she hardly knows at all.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 05:45 pm (UTC)Hope LECTURES Xavier on the true meaning of mutantcy to a man who has dedicated his life doing more than just about anyone to keep mutants alive for the past... Well, Lord knows how long in "real" MU time. -
Uh, she has a really solid point though, 'us vs them, gifted vs non' plagues the mutant community and is one of the barriers that they have in the present, and she doesn't approach it as 'teaching him the true meaning of mutantcy' either, which is kinda what I'm talking about, people are taking her speech pretty negatively despite her raising a rather legitimate point.
Is it just that she's saying it to Xavier which is the problem?
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The tone IS important here, yes, Dani is more direct, but she's not telling Xavier that he's out of date. She's having an honest discussion with her therapist. She's also not saying that Logan and Scott are wrong, just that she doesn't agree with their choices.
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Saying they're separated from the actual world is pretty darn harsh in my book.
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Date: 2011-11-12 06:12 pm (UTC)Even then that doesn't mean she's expressing it well.
'us vs them, gifted vs non' plagues the mutant community and is one of the barriers that they have in the present,
As does the human approach of "freakish monsters vs good ordinary folk", which Xavier has had to deal with a whole lot more of in his life than she has in hers. The fact it's lessened somewhat now than it was before, is thanks to him, not her.
and she doesn't approach it as 'teaching him the true meaning of mutantcy' either, which is kinda what I'm talking about, people are taking her speech pretty negatively despite her raising a rather legitimate point.
Her basic point "We need to have humans and mutants seeing each other as just folks" is fine, but it's both hideously simplistic and naively expressed. She has no idea what Xavier has sacrificed and given up to get even THIS far.
It IS akin to a modern kid telling off civil rights leaders from the 1960's, to their faces, for not doing things the way they feel they should. Everything is said from her POV, with no acknowledgement that Xavier was dealing with a very different scenario, other than a dismissive "I mean it probably served it's purpose in it's time... but that's over". "Probably"?
Dani discusses it impersonally with a third party, she doesn't go up to Wolverine and say "You're outdated and wrong", because she respects his POV even of it's not hers.
Is it just that she's saying it to Xavier which is the problem?
That and the WAY she saying it to him, yes those are BIG problems with how it comes across.
Saying they're separated from the actual world is pretty darn harsh in my book
Which is why it's important that she's NOT saying it to them in an aggressive manner.
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Date: 2011-11-12 06:45 pm (UTC)As does the human approach of "freakish monsters vs good ordinary folk", which Xavier has had to deal with a whole lot more of in his life than she has in hers. The fact it's lessened somewhat now than it was before, is thanks to him, not her.
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Well, yes, and she doesn't even disagree with that.
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Her basic point "We need to have humans and mutants seeing each other as just folks" is fine, but it's both hideously simplistic and naively expressed. -
Gonna have to flat-out disagree with you here. It's not a hideously simplistic point, any more than "I want to focus it on being a blessing and not a curse" is, and it's not exactly naive either, she has had some very hands-on experience in the area and a view based on what is-to-come.
Also to the point, while you're talking a lot about how the idea is presenting, who she's presenting it too, etc... in terms of the meat of the idea, it is still a rather relevant argument to make.
-She has no idea what Xavier has sacrificed and given up to get even THIS far.-
It's not like she doesn't know his history, but more to the point I think Xavier would be one of the first to say that he of all people should not be off-limits for people to tell their views on mutant-relations to because of what he's gone through.
Hope definitely could've been more diplomatic... but she is not wrong for presenting the point to him.
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Which is why it's important that she's NOT saying it to them in an aggressive manner.-
What she actually said was a fair bit worse there to the subject in question, so I'd disagree with that.
What you say does matter, not just how one says it.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:37 pm (UTC)I don't think you can tell someone you've just met "oh, by the way; the work of your life? You could have done it better" (and the criticism is basically nitpicking about word choice) without coming across as belittling.
I dunno, I think people are letting their perception of the characters color their takes on the arguments.
I beg to differ, since i have a pretty positive opinion of Hope otherwise.
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Date: 2011-11-12 05:55 pm (UTC)I don't think you can tell someone you've just met "oh, by the way; the work of your life? You could have done it better" (and the criticism is basically nitpicking about word choice) without coming across as belittling.-
Except she's talking about what they should do in the present day, not what he should've done. I just don't see it nearly as attacking as you seem to- she's coming to him to discuss his word choice after all (imo, not a 'nitpicky' matter, prejudice is a battle fought in perception, but still far from the entirety of what he did), not his dreams, goals or actions, and even directly came out and said that she gets it was good for the time and says he should talk to one of her friends who's having a problem on the issue. She's giving her piece on one area she has issue with and bringing it up with a famous teacher, she is not going "Rar Xavier you suck!".
-I beg to differ, since i have a pretty positive opinion of Hope otherwise.-
On the flipside, I view her points on how mutants should present themselves there as smarter than a lot of the stuff she does.
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Date: 2011-11-12 06:10 pm (UTC)The validity (or absence of validity) of her point has very little to do on whether or not she was rude in the way she gave it.
Why do you make if the fact Xavier looked annoyed at her after she did it? Why do you think he called it "getting lectured" (and made reference to the fact she lacked knowledge) - if it was such a polite kind of disagreement?
Shit, she didn't even let him answer her before waltzing out.
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Date: 2011-11-12 06:18 pm (UTC)The validity (or absence of validity) of her point has very little to do on whether or not she was rude in the way she gave it.-
She was rude. She was not taking a "oh, by the way; the work of your life? You could have done it better" level of rudeness, though.
Heck, who could disagree with Xavier on anything mutant-relations related if you view it that way?
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Date: 2011-11-12 06:46 pm (UTC)Heck, who could disagree with Xavier on anything mutant-relations related if you view it that way?
Have you seen what I said about Dani above?
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Date: 2011-11-12 07:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 07:17 pm (UTC)Hope may have experience about prejudice; but she doesn't know what it is to be a mutant in the 20th or 21th century. She cannot, she's only been there for a couple of months, at most. All prejudices aren't equivalent, they take different forms and expressions and are felt in different ways, and it's pretty presumptuous to claim that, for example, because you know what it's like to suffer from sexism, then you also know what it's like to suffer from racism.
she's still raising a good point.
It could be a good point if she had taken the time to learn more about Xavier's ideas before making it. As it is, it's dismissive, naive bullshit.
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