Foundation of Clay

[arbre_rieur]

Four pages from WONDER WOMAN 3...

Comments

[nezchan]

Yeah, the Zeus thing turned out to be an utter letdown. Here I was expecting something epic and interesting (which with this creative team isn't an unrealistic expectation) and instead just got "yeah, I fucked this dude and lied about it, sorry". No deeper meaning, just complete abandonment of her old origin.

Hopefully something interesting will come from the fallout, but at the moment I am disappoint.

[hybrid2]

And her ssters where making fun of her by calling her clay?

complete nosenses.

[nezchan]

I can see them calling her that now, given there's an undercurrent of "you betrayed us by going to man's world". But calling her that as a child makes no sense.

And of course she was the only Amazon child, wasn't she? So it would have been a bunch of adults insulting a kid in that case, which doesn't sound right.

[arbre_rieur]

With an entire island population, there's always bound to be a few asshats.

[crabby_lioness]

"As a child she knew the love of 100 mothers."


I'm sticking with Perez.

[nezchan]

Certainly a lot more poetic, and sticking with Perez is always a good idea anyhow.

I can even handle the idea of discontent/jealousy in some quarters, like in Gail Simone's run. It's natural enough, but everyone's got enough sense not to blame Diana for something she can't help (with the exception of an even smaller minority). But to call her Clay to her face? (hehe, Clayface) That seems beyond the pale.

[arbre_rieur]

It is beyond the pale, but when you're dealing with an entire island's population, I don't think it's unrealistic that at least a few people will like that.

[nyadnar17]

Really? I have been referring to her as a golem on forums for years. I figured that referencing the fact that she isn't(wasn't) a real person would have been the go to put down line of choice.

[darkknightjrk]

I don't think that is the case. Remember in #2, when Hermes was telling Zola the clay origin, he said that she was viewed as the perfect Amazon, because no man was involved in conceiving her. It was a nickname of affection. When Diana is sad and mentioning she hasn't been called that since a little girl, I'm thinking that either Diana never felt comfortable with that nickname, or she's sad that they're now using it with disdain. Eris also pretty much speaks in wordplay and puns, so her "children can be so cruel" is probably her saying that these silly little Amazons who are WAY below her were unwittingly being lied to without ever knowing it.

[nyadnar17]

You know if Wonder Woman has built a huge part of her identity and her beliefs on the fact that she is perfect because she has never been "mared" by the mark of a man, then I could see the reveal that she has a father being truly earth shattering. That really would make her whole life a lie.

[arbre_rieur]

Plus, there's the whole embodiment of truth thing...

[sherkahn]

It's the DCnU. What were you expecting? Dignity?

[nezchan]

I do like how Strife has just sorta attached herself to the group. Presumably she's amused by this whole business.

[darkknightjrk]

She's basically a hot, houte-couture troll following them around.

"Hey, Diana! You thought you was made of clay? Dumbass--your mom got knocked up by Zeus! Trolololololol--"

[icon_uk]

She's basically a hot, houte-couture troll

Well, the clue's right there in her name.

[eyz]

I just love this new take on WW...why couldn't we had this right from the start instead of Straczynski "reboot"?...

[q99]

What we needed was more of Gail's run...

[eyz]

What I wanted was more of George Perez...it seems we can't always get what we want :(

[lonewolf23k]

I want to go back to Straczynski's version. At least that was respectful of what Wonder Woman symbolized and who she was.

This? This is Rule 63 Hercules.

[valtyr]

Not really. Rule 63 Hercules would be awesome.

[lonewolf23k]

Actually, that's true.

And now we can't have it, because people will accuse it of ripping off Wonder Woman.

[biod]

Digging Wondy, not so much the origin.

[q99]

The origin dropped this from 'monthly' to 'tradewait' status for me.

[shadowpsykie]

Motto

[mrosa]

I wanted Promeathe to be more influential, but not like this...

[midnightvoyager]

Still not interested.

Also, that last shot of Wondy is TERRIBLY not flattering.

[tauruschick12]

welp it was too much to hope for them to go with the DCAU's version of 'I made you out of clay, but this one male god helped me make it' huh

they had to go with the 'yup I fucked him' thing

well I suppose I should be thankful Hippolyta wasn't raped by Zeus, and that it was consensual sex with Zeus that produced Diana I guess

*sigh*

[arbre_rieur]

"welp it was too much to hope for them to go with the DCAU's version of 'I made you out of clay, but this one male god helped me make it' huh"

That wasn't just DCAU. Wasn't it the post-Crisis origin in the comics, too?

[flash_fan]

Am I the only one who is terribly in love with this book? I've always loved Wonder Woman as a character but rarely enjoyed her in comics; she usually is just shoved in there between Bruce and Clark and her own books bored me with few exceptions. Yet, there is something about this book that just makes me think Wonder Woman has a purpose. She stops snobby gods from toying with mortals like puppets she IS as important as Batman and Superman if not more significant. I just love how she's portrayed here. Beautiful yet strong, her costume could have a little more Greek influence but overall I love this book.

[nezchan]

I love the book, and it's the first incarnation of WW that I've picked up on a monthly basis and plan to continue. I just feel "jumped in bed with Zeus" is one of the least good storytelling choices they could have made there. I am interested in seeing fallout from finding out her mother lied to her though, not to mention what being a demigod brings to the table and how Other Mother is going to jump.

[shadowpsykie]

I agree we didn't need daddy zeus (though I admit it does make her relationship to the gods an interesting twist) I like this better than"god rape".

That said, aside from this, I have been loving this book and its the first time I have been excited about wonder woman since rucka (I loved gail's run, but there was something about rucka...)

[golden_orange]

Nope. I'm in much the same position as you, actually.

[jeyl]

I never liked how a majority of the women in the new DC Universe have been nothing but fu** buddies to the male characters, but I had no idea they would actually use that term as an origin story for their #1 female character.

"Wonder Woman is the child of a God"

A god who has done absolutely nothing but have sex with most of the female characters in this story. That's not epic. That's Seth Rogen's next comedy. Now we have a Diana who was born probably by accident because her mother just can't resist godly co** instead of being created out of pure, longing love that stemmed from her previous life when she was murdered while pregnant.

I also don't like how Wonder Woman handles issues with violence, especially towards her fellow Amazons. This Wonder Woman has almost no compassion, no sense on sincerity and no lust for life. All I see is a person who wants to be angry and wants to hurt people.

[meowshi]

"I never liked how a majority of the women in the new DC Universe have been nothing but fu** buddies to the male characters."

Birds of Prey? Batwoman? Wonder Woman? Every female character in Demon Knights?

Honestly, I think the DCnU has several strong female characters. Besides the exception of Starfire and mayyybe Harley, I can't even think of another character I would describe the way you have. Definitely not even Selina.

[jeyl]

Not even Selina? Have you read the first two issues of Catwoman? And as for Wonder Woman, it's her mother that's the fu** buddie. The one who brought Diana to life out of love, not by an act of lust to a raping god. But hey, if you honestly believe Wonder Woman doesn't work because she doesn't have a man in her life, be my guest.

Also, Batwoman? She doesn't even fit with the new DCNU and for good reason. She's got writers and artists with common sense. Her relationship with Maggie makes this garbage look like. Plus she can take the sight of a gun pointing at her, which is more than I can say for Miracle Babs.

And don't tell me that DCNU has strong female characters. The old universe had a lot more of them, and they were a heck of a lot better. They didn't need to resort to this crap.

[meowshi]

The Old DC had a lot more characters to mine for potential stories. I believe that strong female characters will continue to be introduced. And yeah - I think that DC's depiction of females outside of Kory, Harley, and Selina has been pretty good. I suppose it just feels like some people are writing off the entire relaunch based on a few, admittedly terrible, books.

Reading over the comments though, it seems that a lot of commenters don't even seem to like this book, so maybe I'm just in the wrong here.

[arbre_rieur]

I think if there's one thing this issue made clear, it's that Hippolyta and Zeus were definitely more than just fuckbuddies.

[jeyl]

Really? Sounds like that's all they ever did. Did this series not mention how Zeus takes on many forms to appease the woman he wants to bed with? And he certainly left the relationship in a hurry after Diana was born. You'd think this all powerful god might actually do something besides what he's been doing the entire time. Screw, leave and screw someone else.

[golden_orange]

In the telling, though, there's clearly more than sex involved on Hippolyta's side, even if it's unreciprocated (and it does seem to be kind of indicated that it's not entirely unreciprocated).

As for 'screw, leave, and screw someone else', to be fair that's kind of a big part of Zeus' fundamental character. Plus, we're only three issues in and he's been confined to backstory the whole time, so it's not like he's really had the opportunity to do anything at all.

[golden_orange]

"A god who has done absolutely nothing but have sex with most of the female characters in this story. That's not epic."

But that's Greek mythology in a nutshell, really. :-)

(Plus, to be fair, he's slept with, like, two women in the entire story that we know of. Hardly most of the cast.)

[arbre_rieur]

Well, three, if you count his wife. I mean, it's pretty safe to assume he's slept with her at some point.

[golden_orange]

Fair point.

Perhaps the above should be amended to 'two people who we know of that are also in some way directly relevant to the current plot'.

[jeyl]

"But that's Greek mythology in a nutshell, really."

And that's supposed to be a better origin?

[golden_orange]

Well, speaking personally, I think it's better. And in it's way it's just as classic as 'a statue given life by the Gods', I suppose.

[jeyl]

"And in it's way it's just as classic as 'a statue given life by the Gods', I suppose."

Except that she didn't need to screw any of that Gods in order for that to happen.

[golden_orange]

Maybe not, but to be honest, I don't see that as an inherent weakness of the story; sex is a part of life that works for me story-telling wise, statues coming to life doesn't work as well. You obviously disagree.

I get the feeling this is going to be one of those 'agree to disagree' things.

[espanolbot]

Hrrmph. Well In know what's going in my next installment of Cringeworthy Comics Moments.

Something that maks this revelation really unpleasant...er.

[meowshi]

Well besides Diana's costume, I think these three issues have been fantastic. Some of my favorites, actually. Still sort of wish she looked more like Exoristos, but I get the need for iconic costumes...

[shadowpsykie]

I don't think they needed to retcon zeus as her father, but ia am, still loving this book. She is strong, and powerful and wonder woman

[jeyl]

Just lacking in compassion and good heartedness.

[shadowpsykie]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't see that at all. Yes, I see a battle hardened warrior, but I also see a person who is very compassionate, and VERY much having a good heart. A person who was not compassionate, or who was not good hearted would care less about Zola or her baby. she makes me think of a spartan soldier or centurion, those who stand on the outside, protecting society while never truly being a part of it. Even so she rerains her compassion and her good heartedness

[jeyl]

"but I also see a person who is very compassionate, and VERY much having a good heart."

Yeah, like the time Wondy told the girl she rescued that she was thinking about leaving her with the monsters. All because they were mocking her home. Good heart my aunt fanny.

[shadowpsykie]

It was a joke! Since when can she not joke? We are not going to agree so I'll end this conversation here

[turtlefu]

Anybody who read Perez and Rucka's runs should be sincerely disappointed with this. This is not Wonder Woman. There is no compassion, no love, no great inner strength. This is Warrior Woman. A violent reboot of Wonder Woman to make her appeal to men who thought that Wonder Woman wasn't accessible because she didn't have a father! OH BOO HOO.
Well, DC, I guess you won. You have more readers now and she's more "accessible" but at what cost?
Isn't it funny how DC is perfectly willing to throw its female characters under the bus for sales?

[thespis]

This. Oh-so-much this.

I really hate how the DC reboot is screwing over all my favourite female characters.

[golden_orange]

To each their own, of course, but I'm honestly struggling to see how this version of Wonder Woman is lacking compassion, love and inner-strength. She seems to have displayed all of these elements in the issues I've read so far.

[jeyl]

"She seems to have displayed all of these elements in the issues I've read so far."

Like how she punches one of her fellow amazons square in the face in front of everyone WHILE THEY'RE MOURNING and telling them to stop calling her names just because one called her by her real name? When I think of a strong willed and compassionate person, I don't think about misbehaving lower school students. At least they may grow up to be more respectful and more adult, where as Wonder Woman here is already an adult here and so far all she does is react to things in violent ways.

Try again.

[golden_orange]

Although to be fair, let's not forget Diana's own personal trauma there, having just discovered that her entire life is based on a lie -- which would not exactly put her in the best of moods. And that said Amazon was, in loudly blaming her for absolutely everything bad that had recently happened, if not actually asking for a punch was not exactly acting as Little Miss Innocent And Sunshine in keeping the tension stakes low. In short, Diana's actions weren't entirely unprovoked there.

And seriously? 'Try again'? We have differing views over a comic book, there's no need to be so antagonistic about it.

[marco]

This. So much. So much so that it's painful and depressing even.

[jlbarnett]

I don't like this at all.

[jlbarnett]

DCnu is really bad with relationships overall

[golden_orange]

Honestly, I'm not really understanding the hate here. Maybe it's because I'm not particularly wedded to the old Wonder Woman or the old origin, but I think this is a perfectly fine approach to take. I like it.

[golden_orange]

I did like how the redhead-Amazon-who-I'm-pretty-certain-isn't-Artemis-and-who-doesn't-like-Diana-much had her little moment of inciting the other Amazons to rise up against Diana well-and-truly undermined when Diana just slugged her one without listening to any of it.

[jeyl]

Because random acts of violence towards others is obviously a strong character trait.

[golden_orange]

Considering she was basically loudly calling Diana out in front of the other Amazons, this is hardly a case of a 'random' act of violence. She was hardly standing quietly at the sidelines before Diana started picking on her for no reason, she was looking for a fight, at least to some degree. Basically, don't start fights you can't finish.

If you don't like the book, that's fine, but I can't help but think you're reaching for things to dislike about it, at least slightly.

[jeyl]

If I really wanted to not like this book, I wouldn't have bothered paying for three whole issues. But now that we've got all this going on, my interest in it is lost.

And when the comic has a cover art of a broken clay statue, characters who say lines like "You refer to your princess as clay? HAHA! I mean really.", and starting an origin story with "There was a man", I think this comic is intentionally mocking those who actually like Wonder Woman's original origin.

[golden_orange]

Fair enough and to each their own, of course, but in your lack of interest you just seem to be taking some questionable readings of the text, is all I'm saying.

As for mocking people, again I have to disagree; the broken clay-statue is clearly symbolic of the sense of betrayal Diana feels upon learning what has been concealed from her, the line you cite is spoken by a character we are clearly supposed to view as duplicitous, untrustworthy and devoted to stirring up trouble, and the line of dialogue is, well, a summing up of the new backstory, basically. It seems like a bit of a stretch to me to take the interpretation that they're attacking and mocking fans of the old origin is all.

[jeyl]

"you just seem to be taking some questionable readings of the text"

That's rich. My comments are questionable but changing Wonder Woman's origin story is 100% legit. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd rather have wonder woman with her biker jacket back. That storyline at least had Wondy fighting her way to rejoin the Amazons, where this Wonder Woman now wants nothing to do with them. And why? Because she's mad and wants to solve things through violence. And before you even mention what kind of possibilities might come from Zeus being her father will bring, I only have two words.

Daddy issues.

You could probably count every super hero by name who specifically had daddy issues being the central conflict in that hero's story with both hands. Maybe that's what makes this Wonder Woman more appealing. She's more simple, more recognizable and more predictable. All of those elements can make a reader feel comfortable, but the drawbacks of that is that she won't bring anything new or unique to the table. The Wonder Woman I knew had something to bring to the table both physically and mentally. This Wonder Woman is just more muscle.

[golden_orange]

But those aren't the views I'm finding questionable (although personally, I think changing her origin is legit, but that's clearly something we're not going to be seeing eye-to-eye on). Okay, you dislike that they've changed Wonder Woman's origins and think that it cheapens and devalues her as a character and loses originality. I may disagree with you on several of these points in several ways, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that we're not going to be changing each other's minds about it any time soon, but I can understand where you're coming from here (some, at least; I don't really see what you're talking about when you accuse Wonder Woman of being 'just more muscle').

It's when you accuse Wonder Woman of things like 'random acts of violence' against the Amazons and lay into her for "punch(ing) one of her fellow amazons square in the face in front of everyone WHILE THEY'RE MOURNING and telling them to stop calling her names just because one called her by her real name" while seemingly completely ignoring the contexts in which these things happen -- firstly, that the Amazon she 'punches at random' has been clearly attempting to incite her fellow Amazons against her throughout the episode and is clearly challenging her when Diana makes a punch, and that one of the names she is demanding they stop using towards her is clearly established as being a name they've been using towards her with some contempt, hence why she might not like being called it -- that I start to think that you're letting your overall views on the story colour the points you're making.

But like I say, I get the distinct feeling that we're not going to be changing each other's minds on this anytime soon.

[jeyl]

"she is demanding they stop using towards her is clearly established as being a name they've been using towards her with some contempt"

Amazons. Let's make them less like a family who refer to themselves as sisters and more like middle school bullies who pick on those who are different... for no good reason. I honestly don't know why the Amazons are bothered by Diana's conception given that, I don't know, SHE'S THE DAUGHTER OF THEIR QUEEN. And if Hippolyta really loved her daughter, why would she allow the Amazons to mock her daughter like this so openly, especially since her conception?

"while seemingly completely ignoring the contexts in which these things happen"

Oh, I understand the context, it's just not a well written one. I don't see any logic in the Amazons behavior when they mock Diana by calling her "clay", or when they plan a rouse against her. What was the point? What do they hope to accomplish? If it's because she's different, that's a pretty lame excuse since she's about as much of a warrior as they are, especially now since she's got genuine amazon blood in her.

But does Diana try to console with the Amazons about this? No. Does she try to express how she feels in learning this recent revelation so that everyone can understand how she could be more Amazon than they had previously thought? No. Does she express any sort of love or compassion towards ANY of her Amazon sisters who have probably been nice and loving towards her since conception? No. She doesn't do anything to make her standing with the Amazons better. She got angry learning the truth, learned that the Amazons don't like her, and went out looking for a fight. After that's done, she decides to abandon the island and leave all her sisters because she's angry. It is here at that moment of anger and violence where the book proudly declares that this is the new Wonder Woman. Not a hero who with compassion and a lust for life, but a warrior who solves issues through anger and violence. She's leaving her family, and the book wants me to think that this is an awesome moment. It's not.

[golden_orange]

"Amazons. Let's make them less like a family who refer to themselves as sisters and more like middle school bullies who pick on those who are different... for no good reason."

This assumes that the two are mutually exclusive, though; plenty of families have plenty of bullying dicks within them. Especially if the amount of people in the family numbers in the hundreds. It's not all endless love, niceness and support.

"If it's because she's different, that's a pretty lame excuse since she's about as much of a warrior as they are, especially now since she's got genuine amazon blood in her."

Prejudice ain't exactly rational, though. And we don't know how many of them knew she had genuine amazon blood and how many didn't.

"But does Diana try to console with the Amazons about this? No. Does she try to express how she feels in learning this recent revelation so that everyone can understand how she could be more Amazon than they had previously thought? No. Does she express any sort of love or compassion towards ANY of her Amazon sisters who have probably been nice and loving towards her since conception? No. She doesn't do anything to make her standing with the Amazons better."

Why exactly is all of this on Diana's shoulders, though? She's just learnt her entire life is based on a life, that there was apparently a conspiracy to keep the truth from her (and she doesn't know who's part of it and who isn't), she's feeling upset, betrayed and angry, and then she comes across her 'sisters' apparently conspiring against her. And since it seems pretty clear that there's a whole load of them who very much haven't been "nice and loving towards her since conception", why exactly would she feel particularly well-disposed to them at that point? She's not a robot.

"She's leaving her family, and the book wants me to think that this is an awesome moment. It's not."

It seems pretty clear to me that the book wants us to think that this is actually rather a sad moment coloured by betrayal and hurt than an awesome one.

[kaete]

I could possibly live with Zeus being shoe-horned in the story and the loss of a unique origin for turning Diana into Hercules-lite, but the old "HOW COULD YOU BETRAY ME MOTHER?" is so incredibly cliche and boring. And it's been done so many times in WW, I just can't stand it any more.

It's like comic writers (and let's be fair, most writers in general) have ZERO CLUE how to write a healthy relationship between mothers and daughters. There's plenty of amazing father/son relationships in fiction. Mother/daughters invariably end up in negative relationships.

It's sad and frustrating and it's killing my interest in a series that I really wanted to enjoy.

[jeyl]

"but the old "HOW COULD YOU BETRAY ME MOTHER?" is so incredibly cliche and boring."

What gets a laugh out of me is how the comic fails in trying to depic Hippolyta as being sympathetic and nurtering towards Diana when she reveals the truth.... by going into a very detailed explanation on how screwing Zeus was so glorious and awesome. If Hippolyta had simply said yes to the fact that Diana is the daughter of Zues, at least that would have sufficed enough and leave room for interpretation that she still wanted a daughter, but no. She has to go into a long detailed description about their lustful relationship in such detail that it was all about pleasure and lust and not about Diana at all. And this comic wants me to sympathize with her.

*head desk*