espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Behind the cut!

Well, the final Versus came down to Wonder Woman and Cassandra Cain, and the winner by 1192 votes to 1167 is...



In celebration, some bits from the story No One Dies Tonight, in which Cass carries out her memorial rite on the anniversary of the time she killed someone, by making sure no one dies violently in Gotham. At all.

This includes breaking into a gas chamber to keep a murderer from being executed.

The convict is bewildered by a mysterious ninja breaking him out of his execution, which considering he was ready to die starts to get him worried as to what's going to happen next. The pair then bump into the mother of the woman that the convict murdered, which knocks the wind out of Cass' sails,

Reluctantly, Cass returns him back to the guards (whose ammunition she stole on the way into the prison), and breaks out of the prison again, devastated that she wasn't able to keep the titular promise that she made to herself at the beginning of the issue.

This is from issue 19 of Cass' series.

Date: 2011-11-23 12:43 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Execution is about revenge, not justice.

Date: 2011-11-23 12:48 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Well yes, I think she was right in stopping such barbarism. It's a pity she was pressured to let it happen anyway.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:06 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Her motivations don't work at all IMHO.

It was a legally sanctioned execution, the end result of the justice system she ultimately serves (and which Batman supports by his actions, including the death penalty. HE believes in no killing, he doesn't interfere with the due process of the law).

She had no business whatsoever to interfere with it. How is this different from organising a jailbreak because you happen to think locking people up is cruel?

And it's at least heading towards the hypocritical, in that she disrupts a legal execution on THIS night, but presumably is happy to let people be executed the other 364 days of the year? Either it's important enough to stop it all the time, or it's not.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:35 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] theredhood
Which was ultimately the message of the story; "Sweet kid but honey, you have NO idea how this world really turns sometimes." As a reader, I don't think we were meant to empathize with her, just feel sorry for her inability to comprehend what you pointed out. As others have said, it was intentionally formative for the character.

In a broader sense, the semantics we've opened up here could be applied to Batman himself; How many stories do we have where he's busted up mob meetings and put 8 - 10 dudes in full body casts just to, I dunno, find out where the Penguin sequestered a stolen diamond? Quite a few. How many stories do we have where Batman uses his world's greatest detecting to track down a murderous internet pedophile? Comparatively not so many.

Does that mean that Batman really hates guidos but is happy to let kids be diddled? You can't really leap to that assumption. Dude's Batman. He has a lot of stuff going on, and he can't always fight every bit of corruption.

Though he tries, and that's why we love him.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:46 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Here's an interesting side note. According to Wikipedia, the Atlas of the DC Universe says that Gotham is located in southern New Jersey.

New Jersey doesn't have the death penalty.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:49 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
That, and we can assume that he does routine crimefighting offscreen, as the "camera" doesn't follow him 24/7. So maybe he takes care of the pedos between Joker breakouts. Gotta pass the time somehow.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:57 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
New Jersey also doesn't have the Goddamn Batman..

Seriously though, if we want to get picky, didn't New Jersey ban the death penalty in 2007? I think this was published before then.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Date: 2011-11-23 02:03 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Looking a bit deeper, I see there hasn't been an execution there since the 70's. Yeah, fictional universe, and yeah Gotham seems to operate as a sovereign country at times, but it's amusing all the same.

Date: 2011-11-23 02:25 am (UTC)
aeka: (Huntress [whatevs]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
Gotham in JERSEY? I'm sorry, that just made me LOL. For some reason, I was always under the impression it was in New York?

Date: 2011-11-23 02:28 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
I was being nitpicky anyway. Like you said, there haven't been any executions since the 70's, so for all intents and purposes you might as well say they don't have them.

Date: 2011-11-23 02:31 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
I remember going to Shoujocon down in Jersey some years ago, my friend greeted me at the shuttle bus with "Welcome to New Jersey, we apologize for Newark."

Swap that out for "Gotham" and you're set.

Date: 2011-11-23 02:48 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
Gotham is a nickname for New York.

Date: 2011-11-23 03:18 am (UTC)
junipepper: (jumplines)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
Gotham, Exit 4...

Date: 2011-11-23 03:27 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
Welcome to Gotham
Stay the fuck away from anyone dressed in a costume without a bat theme.
Especially clowns.

We are not kidding at all.

Date: 2011-11-23 03:32 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Some days, stay away from the bat people too.

Especially the midget ones.

Date: 2011-11-23 03:32 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan


Til Crime Alley!

Date: 2011-11-23 04:21 am (UTC)
dr_archeville: Doctor Arkeville (Default)
From: [personal profile] dr_archeville
Doesn't that book also list Metropolis as being in Delaware?

Date: 2011-11-23 04:22 am (UTC)
dr_archeville: Doctor Arkeville (Default)
From: [personal profile] dr_archeville
I vaguely recall some comic writer -- I sadly cannot recall who -- once saying that Gotham was New York at night, and Metropolis was New York during the day.

Date: 2011-11-23 04:24 am (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Dunno, but I gather they're relatively close to each other. In both cases pretty close to NY, which helps since they're both based on the city to some degree.

For some reason I like the idea of Gotham being in Jersey. For one thing, it prevents Jersey Shore from ever existing in the DCnU. Because even Batman wouldn't put up with that in his state.

Date: 2011-11-23 05:20 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
Sounds familiar.

Date: 2011-11-23 05:21 am (UTC)
master_nate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] master_nate
DUN Dun!!!
Dun dunnnnnnnnn Dun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: 2011-11-23 07:19 am (UTC)
zechs80: (Mayuri)
From: [personal profile] zechs80
Well we also know that since that one Joker story where he almost gets the electric chair. Plus in animated Superman we so know Metropolis has the death penalty.

Date: 2011-11-23 08:21 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Stay the fuck away from anyone dressed in a costume without a bat theme.

Or is bird themed, heavy on the red.

Date: 2011-11-23 10:43 am (UTC)
kagome654: (*twitch*)
From: [personal profile] kagome654
Technically she has no business interfering in the majority of what she does.

And I don't think something necessarily becomes acceptable just because it is legal. If you think taking a life against the owner's will is morally wrong I see no reason to make an exception just because the state is doing the killing. I think that's pretty darn consistent.

Date: 2011-11-23 10:58 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
But that's my point; if she has a problem with State executions (and coming from a country which has no death penalty (even for treason) I share that POV), why isn't she interfering with them every day?

Plus, every murderer she catches and leaves to the law may well have the death penalty applied to them (Unless, y'know, they're a recurring franchise villain in which case, not a hope, but that's another discussion), so by her actions she's handing them over to possible execution, how does she reconcile with that?

Date: 2011-11-23 11:31 am (UTC)
korilian: (Wanna play?)
From: [personal profile] korilian
Some types of crime fighting are just more respectable than others :).

"It's okay to build me an armor tank car, but ooh tapping phones, that's going to far!"

Date: 2011-11-23 12:07 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
When you're the Gotham justice departmen, you need all the measures. I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't have death rays is that the villains never seem to get a good use out of them either.

Date: 2011-11-23 01:01 pm (UTC)
skjam: Man in blue suit and fedora, wearing an eyeless mask emblazoned with the scales of justice (Default)
From: [personal profile] skjam
Some US states used to allow the convict to choose between two or three methods. I remember years ago reading that one inmate had chosen firing squad instead of lethal injection because he wanted the most violent execution method he could get.

On a tangent, I recently reviewed a Swedish crime novel on my Dreamwidth journal, Cell 8, which is all about the death penalty. "But Sweden doesn't have the death penalty" you might say. Exactly.

Date: 2011-11-23 03:02 pm (UTC)
kagome654: (Cool Story Bro)
From: [personal profile] kagome654
I assumed her motivation was probably explained in the story itself. I agree that if she feels strongly enough to interfere she should do so all the time, so I gathered there was a reason this individual or case struck a chord.

Date: 2011-11-23 03:06 pm (UTC)
kagome654: (Bored now)
From: [personal profile] kagome654
Okay, the anniversary thing was mentioned, though that seems a little odd to me because I thought she tried her best to keep people from dying every night, but I guess I'll roll with it...

I hate not being able to edit my posts

Date: 2011-11-23 04:07 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Now I will never get the idea of Cass speaking like a member of the Sopranos in her normal voice out of of my head. Of course that would also mean Steph is a Joisey girl too.

Date: 2011-11-23 04:38 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Based on comments elsewhere in the thread it appears to be a self-imposed anniversary/memorial of her first "kill" for Cain, and her determination that no one should die on that day stems from that, so it's not so much ideological as chronological, and the actual person involved is irrelevant.

Date: 2011-11-23 09:54 pm (UTC)
drmcninja: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drmcninja
Sorry, I have to disagree. I really did think that too, except I was very close to Doctor Bill Petit and his youngest daughter, the family from the Cheshire home invasion. In a case like that, where there is no question that they did what they did, and they raped and murdered three women just because they could, and burned down everything he owned for no reason, there is no suitable punishment other than death for a crime like that. Is it about revenge? Absolutely. Can it also be about justice? Yes. But is it always about both? Absolutely not.

Date: 2011-11-24 09:54 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
Cass :'3
How much I do love your entire original series' run <3

Date: 2011-11-24 10:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] saralakali
That is true, however in all the retcons since the 80's, Gotham is now in New Jersey, about where Little Egg Harbor is. Metropolis is in Delaware. Central City used to be where Athens, OH is but now Central City and Keystone City are where the two Kansas Cities are. Star City used to be an analogue of LA and Coast City used to be an analogue of San Diego, but they've both been moved up the California coast.

Date: 2011-11-25 09:29 am (UTC)
bariman: by perletwo (Default)
From: [personal profile] bariman
Joker or Poison Ivy might survive lethal injection, guys like Mr. Freeze and Clayface are pretty much immortal to everything but their specific weakness (heat and water, respectively). They might even get a government-sanctioned death ray, for that matter.

Date: 2011-11-26 07:43 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
At the moment, I am picturing Dick and Damian as the only members of the Batclan without thick Joisey accents all the time, and even they probably affect them when in costume. I'm not sure whether to be amused or terrified.


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