What If The Male Avengers Posed Like The Female One?

[brooms]

Art by Kevin Bolk, source is Bleeding Cool.





I think this is the first time we see Scott and Alex interacting since Alex came back.

Pencils by KHOI PHAM.

Comments

[whitesycamore]

I've often wondered what this sort of role reversal would look like if it was drawn by someone who was actually good at drawing sexy men.

...But I've never seen that.

[valtyr]

Like this.

[moetushie]

Very nice!

[whitesycamore]

Interesting! Culturally speaking, it still doesn't really work because our ideas of "sexy" for men and women just aren't equivalent, but at least your example shows an *inkling* of what it might look like if male heroes were drawn for sex appeal first and foremost - I mean, at least it looks like somewhat like something someone might conceivably find sexy, rather than a grotesque joke like most of the role reversal pics do.

The ones that I feel miss the mark widest are the ones which try to draw male bodies in female postures, but inadvertently end up drawing the same old female bodies in female postures, just with a few male characteristics grafted on.

Actually, the pic in this post is a good example - those are not like any male asses I've ever seen. They are just... just too big and round-y. But I guess it proves something about our discomfort with sexualised men, if the guy trying to make that very point is unable to actually draw a sexualised *male* ass?

[valtyr]

Well, Tony's pose there is a copy of a Spider-Woman pose from a specific pin-up, so presumably it is what an artist found to be a sexy pose for a woman - and I certainly find it a sexy pose for a man.

The main difference is the musculature, and Tony's hips aren't as curvy.

[whitesycamore]

When I said "it looks somewhat like something someone might conceivably find sexy", I meant specifically that it looks like something that could be sexy even to someone *male-attracted.* I mean, most of the poses in typical role-reversal pics are taken from actual pictures of heroines, it's just that some 'female' poses really don't work well on men without some serious tweaking

I don't find the pic you posted sexy myself even though I do like some traditionally 'feminine' poses on men, but I can understand why you do.

[valtyr]

I... don't follow what you mean by male-attracted? Attracted to males? It's a well-done picture of an attractive man in a sexualised pose, so presumably a decent percentage of people attracted to men would find it sexy?

[whitesycamore]

It's a traditionally sexualised pose for a *woman* - on a man I imagine that many people would find it quite silly looking.

I can see it's appeal, but it *is* a pose designed to accentuate the curve of the hips. I don't like curvy hips because I am exclusively attracted to men, and curvy hips remind me of women, which is not sexy. Therefore, that pose is not one that best accentuates the male body IMO.

However, it's not one of those 'female' poses that are horribly unflattering to the male body either, so I can see why some people might like it.

[valtyr]

Really? I find the curve of the lower belly the most interesting part, which displays an impressive masculine set of abs, and the chest and shoulders are pretty well shown-off I think. *shrug*

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. You started out expressing a desire for men drawn 'sexy', but surely the choice there is either drawn in heavily-sexualised poses which are virtually all designed for the female form, or drawn as conventionally attractive men, which an awful lot of men in comics are. There isn't really a vocabulary of men posing sexually for women. I suppose you could find something in the way of men posing for other men?

[liliaeth]

I tend to find it more than a bit silly looking on a woman as well. Doesn't stop some people from finding it attractive

[whitesycamore]

I think it's the knees. If the knees weren't quite so cocked and the lower legs weren't overlapping I could dig it. But as it is, the arrangement of the legs looks too... prissy.

[valtyr]

I don't have the artist on tap, but I'd assume the knees being brought in was to emphasize the curve of the hip without altering the masculine body.

[brooms]

Culturally speaking, it still doesn't really work because our ideas of "sexy" for men and women just aren't equivalent,

I think one reason for that might be because the normalized sexy poses for women are often about vulnerability. Vulnerability can look grotesque and unsexy, from our view, on men.

That said, when I do a google images search (safesearch off) for guy opening his crack gay porn, I get a picture of a naked gentleman in a pose very similar to the one Hulk is sporting.

I'd link, but I fear I'd be breaking community rules.

[whitesycamore]

Actually I love vulnerability on men!

I think the problem lies with how artificial 'sexy' female poses can look. They are often quite deliberately contorted postures that one wouldn't assume naturally. They are a very obvious display, and culturally we are only really used to women performing such an obvious and stylised display.

Personally I think that it might be that there's something deeply weird about the way that we sexualise women - but we're so used to it the grotesqueness only strikes us when we see it on men, i.e. in a place where we're not inured to it.

I once spoke to a male friend about this, and I said something about how when men are sexualised in the same way that women are they tend to end up looking ridiculous. His response?

"But women look ridiculous like that too - it's just that we've decided it's quite sexy for women to look ridiculous."

Ever since he said that I've noticed that many of the things associated with 'sexiness' in women *are* quite dorky and undignified when I think about it.

[kenn_el]

True. Look at the way a 'sexy' woman is often drawn when picking something up off the ground. Never with a bend in the knee. It's awkward. But it's also meant to be enticing. I agree with you about the depiction of the male form, BTW. There ARE artists that do it well, though. Adams in his heyday, Nicola Scott, Colleen Doran, Perez. It's mostly about being able to depict naturalness. That, in males, is sexy. (probably true for females as well, but that's not my area of expertise.)

[schmevil]

About men and vulnerability...

[liliaeth]

Really?

Maybe it's just me then, who finds certain male characters at their most attractive when they're being vulnerable... Spike all bloodied up after Glory tortured him, or Dean Winchester in hell, still makes me go whoah. But then I tend to be a major hurt/comfort fan.

[brooms]

There are acceptably "manly" ways to be vulnerable in media and they are common enough. The last James Bond movie explored it extensively.

I meant poses, like in the video posted by schmevil a couple of comments up.

http://www.kunsthallewien.at/cgi-bin/mediazone/videos/list.pl?id=368&exhibition=8&lang=en@sophiawallace

These aren't common.

[liliaeth]

Once again, Dean Winchester on Supernatural and Spike on Buffy.

Both those character's appeal is halfway built on their inner vulnerability.

Hell, half the reason why spuffy is so popular is because they twisted gender roles. Where Buffy was the stoic hero, and Spike was the needy love interest with his heart on his chest. They even visualize it that in many of their sex scenes, she's the one fully dressed, and he's the one who's fully naked. He's the one who gets the sexy poses, and has the gaze of the audience turned on his looks while she gets the action poses.

As for Supernatural, Dean is very much shown as the caretaker, and gets the lingering gazes. (hell so does Sam, there's a reason fans love to rewatch certain scenes in slow motion)

Sure he's your manly man, but he's also the guy who gets the line about liking pink silk panties. Half of fandom loves to see him hurt, broken, with that single tear that's always shot in such a way that it makes him look prettier. And yes, in this case, pretty is the right word to use.

We get to see their vulnerability, their insecurity and that's why they're so popular, well that and the looks...
.
Maybe I'm wrong in what you mean with acceptable ways of showing male vulnerability, but still, spn is one of the few shows where there's a clear undercurrent of both male leads having been raped and still carrying the mental scars of it.

[cleome45]

[shrug]

Most RL women don't have butts that resemble the idealized female butts in most pin-ups and comic books, either.

[drakyndra]

a grotesque joke like most of the role reversal pics do.

I think that's sort of the point of these images, though (and certainly the Avengers one posted by the OP): That the poses female characters and women are placed in to look sexy are so artificial and grotesque that they seem ludicrous when applied to those whom we aren't used to seeing that way.

The point isn't to make men sexy, it's to see messed up "sexy art" of women can be.

[sistermagpie]

Yes, it seems to me that the main point of the female poses is to twist them so that they're always presenting their secondary sex characteristics as much as possible. So you stick out your butt and breasts and twist around so they're both showing as much as possible, even plump them up in the art to draw the eye to them more. So these guys are being posed in a "sexy" way here. It doesn't look sexy to us, but that's what it's about.

I mean, if I was really imagining a comic book that was made for the women to look sexy by my standards it would be full of women in well-made clothes that didn't show that much skin and they'd stand in ways that made them look active, strong and graceful. Iow, the way the men are often posed now.

[tacitoz]

I think that's the first take on such a picture that I actually LIKE (maybe because it's the first one I've seen that looks like it was drawn by someone who's...good at drawing men)
dayum Tony
if it weren't for Steve(?) hanging from Spidey's thread utterly confused and Wolverine randomly lying about on the floor I would actually not laugh my ass off :,D

[icon_uk]

When I make my fortune (and then some), Mr Perez will, I'm sure, be happy to oblige me with just such a commission! :)

[whitesycamore]

And I will be happy to view it!

You are a good obliging sort of fellow when it comes to things like this. ;)