brooms: (iorek)
[personal profile] brooms posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Art by Kevin Bolk, source is Bleeding Cool.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

I think this is the first time we see Scott and Alex interacting since Alex came back.

Pencils by KHOI PHAM.

Date: 2011-11-28 07:30 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
You started out expressing a desire for men drawn 'sexy'


Actually, I just wanted to see a role-reversal pic that made an honest attempt at attractiveness rather than just being a big joke. So yeah, thanks, you provided that.

I said that your pic was a more passable example than most, but still not particularly sexy (to me) because most 'sexy' female poses look stupid on women, let alone on men. So I'm not really asking for a male-posed-like-a-female picture that will *turn me on*, since by its very premise that ain't going to happen, unless it happens to feminise the guy in one of the very specific ways that I happen to kink for.

but surely the choice there is either drawn in heavily-sexualised poses which are virtually all designed for the female form, or drawn as conventionally attractive men, which an awful lot of men in comics are. There isn't really a vocabulary of men posing sexually for women. I suppose you could find something in the way of men posing for other men?

Maybe it's all the gay porn I consume, but there are actually a wealth of ways to sexualise men beyond them being drawn simply attractive. Look at Greek statues. Calvin Klein adverts. True Blood. That stupid Spartacus tv show that I can't watch becuase it feels like someone has spied on all my tackiest and most embarrassing fantasies and tried to recreat them Hollywood-style - etc. You're probably right that most of these ways are classified as 'homoerotic,' but I think that's because the idea of a female gaze is still quite foreign to many people.

Although it is true that most material aimed at gay men is a *lot* hotter than the stuff explicitly designed to appeal to straight women. I'm not sure why that is, other than the fact that gay stuff more openly acknowledges that the audience might have dominant urges as well as submissive ones.

Date: 2011-11-28 07:40 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Felicia)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Some of the stuff you cite as attractive depiction of men isn't exactly different from comics, though? Greek athlete statues are about displaying a perfect physical body, which I would say is the aim of quite a few comic artists. I don't really know True Blood and Spartacus, but the clips I've seen have fairly conventionally attractive men, well-built. I mean, you mention it's described as homoerotic - but that's true of a lot of comic book art of men, too.

I can't say I agree with you about sexy female poses, though - the main problem, to me, is when they're foolishly exaggerated or inappropriately placed.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:17 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
For True Blood, it isn't necessarily the fact that the men just well built, (though they are. Ryan Kwanten must live at the gym) it's more about the fact that they spend a lot of time naked. In comic books, men tend to built like body builders, bodies that show strength. In True Blood, they're built more like models, people who are trying to attract you through sex appeal. There's a difference between 'strong-destructive" and "strong-attractive" and comic books tend to focus on the former while neglecting the latter.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:25 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
The men in True Blood get into a lot of sexualised *situations*, too. there's always that knowing-wink feeling towards the audience, the "we know you really want to see this..." feeling that is normally only directed towards female characters.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:31 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Yeah. Shapeshifter clothing damage, long, lingering camera angles on dudes, everything that happens to Ryan Kwanten...


(Though a lot of the things that happen to him are the bad things that happen to women. See pretty much all of last season...)

Date: 2011-11-28 08:23 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Some of the stuff you cite as attractive depiction of men isn't exactly different from comics, though?

Depends on the comic. Some comic art depicts men in incredibly sexy ways. I wouldn't say it's the norm though; usually much more care is lavished on the female characters. Not always though.

Greek athlete statues are about displaying a perfect physical body, which I would say is the aim of quite a few comic artists.

I said Greek statues, not just Greek athlete statues. They did a lot of statues of men in repose, or just standing around, that captured certain essentially masculine poses. They depicted men as sexy not just because of their bodies, but in the way that they moved, and the way that they held their bodies. In things like True Blood, it's to do with the way the camera lingers on and pays attention to the male body. It's not enough just to have attractive men there - there's a certain *active* appreciation of male sexuality that is communicated to the audience.

Someone once said that George Perez drew young men's bodies "with a loving eye." That's it. That's what makes his art different from art with generic Perfect Male Bodies in it - it's a sense that he 'gets' it.

Some comics have that same quality, most don't. I'm certainly not saying all comics should have it, but I do appreciate it when it's there. Obviously this is a really subjective thing though.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:27 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Honestly, I disagree with so much of what you're saying I do think we're going to have to chalk this one up to subjectivity.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:30 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Having seen your example of "sexy" up thread, I think it was a lost cause from the start.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:39 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Ult Steve parka)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Nice use of quotes. It would have been a shame to have just agreed to disagree without snideness.

But hey, the work of a female professional comic artist setting out to draw a sexy man for female comic fans is only to be sneered at. Fortunately she has the dozens of enthusiastic comments and hundreds of reblogs by drooling female fans on Tumblr to reassure her that her opinion of what's sexy in a dude isn't as weird as you'd like to suggest, and that there's nothing wrong with her 'loving eye'.

Date: 2011-11-28 08:56 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
I never said her drawing was weird or that anyone was weird for liking it. Jeez, is *that* what you're hung up on, that I don't think that picture is particularly hot?

Or is it really that you disagree with my assertion that sexualising men involves a little more than just having some attractive guys hanging around?

I said the "loving eye" is what separates Perez's work from standard comic book art of men. You know, because you were asking me how, since most comic book artists attempt to draw attractive men, it's different from material created with the explicit intent to *sexualise* men.

For the record, I can see the "loving eye" in your friend's work even though it leaves me cold. I thought we had established that I didn't like the pic because the aesthetic behind it is not my thing, not because I think it's deficient in some way.

Date: 2011-11-28 09:14 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (medusa oils)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
No, I'm not "hung up on" that, thanks for being dismissive again. It isn't possible I could have a legitimate complaint, of course, I must be 'hung up on' something irrelevant.

I'm irritated by the fact you have consistently positioned your view as the 'correct' view of a very subjective topic. And comments like "at least it looks like somewhat like something someone might conceivably find sexy", "a more passable example than most" and then your quotations marks on 'sexy', are being incredibly dismissive.

Frankly, you've been plain rude, and when I said "I disagree with so much of what you're saying I do think we're going to have to chalk this one up to subjectivity", I actually meant "You're neither coherent nor polite so I don't feel like wasting my time discussing this with you."

You know, because you were asking me how, since most comic book artists attempt to draw attractive men, it's different from material created with the explicit intent to *sexualise* men.

I haven't asked you how anything, and I wish you'd stop stating your extremely subjective opinion as The Truth. Between the "here, let me tell you how it is," and the "obviously you're mad at something irrelevant rather than anything I've said" it's like talking to a guy.

Date: 2011-11-28 09:40 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Frankly, you've been plain rude, and when I said "I disagree with so much of what you're saying I do think we're going to have to chalk this one up to subjectivity" I actually meant "You're neither coherent nor polite so I don't feel like wasting my time discussing this with you."

Personally I found the reply you posted a fairly dismissive response, considering the fair amount of time I'd spent responding to your goading questions - responses that I only gave because I thought there was a deeper point to your line of questioning than "so why don't you think this picture is sexy? It is sexy! If you don't agree than I don't know what you expect to find that's any better! Well how is *that* any different to normal superhero comics!"


I haven't asked you how anything, and I wish you'd stop stating your extremely subjective opinion as The Truth.

You must have forgotten all the replies you left me that were riddled with questions. Just as you must have overlooked all the times I stated my opinions with the caveats "to me" and "IMO."

Date: 2011-11-28 10:07 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
overlooked all the times I stated my opinions with the caveats "to me" and "IMO"

Number of times you used the caveat "to me": zero.
Number of times used the caveat "IMO": one. (No "in my opinion" either.)

Evidence seems to suggest it's not that I overlooked "all the times", it's just that you imagined them being there when they weren't there.

I'd love to believe this would give you the idea that maybe your opinions are being expressed more didatically and forcefully than you intend, but what are the odds?

I also like the way you translated "asking you to elaborate in an attempt to understand your point of view" as "goading you because you don't like a picture I like". Seriously, goading? Where did you even get that from? Did you even consider the idea you weren't expressing your opinion very clearly, or do you just assume anyone who doesn't instantly understand you is a grudgewanker?

I mean, that's an interesting story you've made up about how I was obsessing about you not liking a picture, but it's just that. I support your right to write fanfic about me, if that's how you get your jollies, but I'm going to have to ask you stop presenting it as truth.

Oh, and I see you've translate 'I didn't "ask you how" anything' as 'I didn't ask you anything'. I realise the stuff you pretend I say is easier to argue with, but perhaps you could just stick to the stuff I say. I mean, if you're going to make up all my interior and exterior dialogue, you might as well just write yourself notes, no need to bring the Internet or the real me into it.

Date: 2011-11-28 10:17 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Judging from what your earlier reply to me, I just assumed that paraphrasing was fair game now!

Also, you may have missed the "to me," but it is still there. It's even in some nice round brackets that make it easy to find.

Anyway, good night. I spend too much time in my day job dealing with horribly aggressive strangers to make it worthwhile engaging them in my spare time too.

Date: 2011-11-28 10:27 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Paraphrasing means keeping the meaning but changing the wording. Dropping 'how' changes the meaning. It's not paraphrasing.

Oh, I'm sorry for missing that instance. But as I'm sure you're not foolish enough to try and pretend one instance of each is all those times, my point stands that you're claiming to have qualified your opinion a lot more than you actually did.

Good night to you too. If you behave like this to the strangers you meet at your day job, I'm not at all surprised they're aggressive. Of course, on this showing, they could just be asking you questions which you assume are goading based on some offense you imagine they feel. How horribly aggressive!

Date: 2011-11-28 10:40 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
It's really not OK to talk to somebody like this.

Not ever, really, but certainly not because you think they were too forceful in their opinions about sexy pictures of men. :/

Date: 2011-11-28 10:54 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Default)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I'm delighted you've come to this realisation about your behaviour. I suggest you don't dwell on regrets, but focus on not doing it again.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-11-28 11:07 pm (UTC)
salinea: Deadpool has a fucking horned hat on and is ready to kick gum and chew ass. Errr, moderate s_d. (mod hat)
From: [personal profile] salinea
I'm going to freeze this thread, because there really seems to be nothing to be gained from the escalation of aggression in this thread.

This is under discussion by the Mod team so we may come back it.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-12-04 05:03 pm (UTC)
benicio127: (Mod mask!)
From: [personal profile] benicio127
While Scans Daily encourages vigorous debate, overt aggression is unnecessary. If you find a thread escalating, take a step back, or bow out of the conversation. While we note you attempted to bow out, you also returned to this thread.

While we realize there may be personality conflicts and that not all members need to get along or like one another, we ask that our members respect one another. Thank you.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-12-04 04:55 pm (UTC)
salinea: Deadpool has a fucking horned hat on and is ready to kick gum and chew ass. Errr, moderate s_d. (mod hat)
From: [personal profile] salinea
While Scans Daily encourages vigorous debate, overt aggression is unnecessary. If you find a thread escalating, take a step back, or bow out of the conversation. While we realize there may be personality conflicts and that not all members need to get along or like one another, we ask that our members respect one another.

Profile

scans_daily: (Default)
Scans Daily
Founded by girl geeks and members of the slash fandom, [community profile] scans_daily strives to provide an atmosphere which is LGBTQ-friendly, anti-racist, anti-ableist, woman-friendly and otherwise discrimination and harassment free.

Bottom line: If slash, feminism or anti-oppressive practice makes you react negatively, [community profile] scans_daily is probably not for you.

Please read the community ethos and rules before posting or commenting.

September 2014

S M T W T F S
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 1920
21222324252627
282930    

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags