Sex in the 90s

[aeka]

As everyone here knows, DC has gotten a shit tonne of criticism for their portrayal of sex in their New 52 line. Not without reason of course since the sex that has been portrayed so far has been nothing short of fanservice.

But then, back in 1990, DC got away with this...



Makes me wonder what the reactions to THIS was back then if people of today complained about the Batman/Catwoman sex scene in Catwoman #1. At best no one was in any position to complain about the scene being non-consensual. :}


Warning for sex and nudity. NSFW.

Comments

[mrstatham]

Are we really calling the scene from Catwoman 'rape', now? It just.. Well, it seems a little extreme, somehow.

As for the main scene, I think people would kick up even more of a fuss than they have about the other scenes. You can see her rear! And a nipple! And it's even more obvious what they're doing than in the Catwoman scene.

[golden_orange]

Yeah, I found that scene a bit uncomfortable, but I wouldn't go so far as 'rape'.

[aeka]

Are we really calling the scene from Catwoman 'rape', now? It just.. Well, it seems a little extreme, somehow.

I was being sarcastic. I personally thought the idea of Bat and Cat having *anonymous* violent sex with each other was out of character for them both at best, though people did complain about the rape overtones of the scene. Truthfully, I've seen far, far worse than what was actually depicted in Catwoman, enough to make the Catwoman scene look vanilla by comparison.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah--whether it was too explicit for it's rating can be argued (I think I've seen worse on Battlestar Galactica, for example), but calling it rape seems WAY too extreme, IMO.

[philippos42]

This was the Grell/Hannigan stuff? They restricted the sale of this. You couldn't get a subscription if you were under 17 (or was it 16?).

[aeka]

I honestly wouldn't know considering I was 4 at the time of this comic's release. So whatever the 'rules' were for buying comics containing adult content I'm completely oblivious to. >.o

This isn't as bad as the Catwoman one

[blue_bolt]

Compared to some of the more recent DC universe examples, this is relatively tame.

It's pretty much vanilla sex between two consenting adults who are joking about what to name their children. The sad part is that after this they had to ruin Green Arrow's personality and make it so they never had children and that Red Arrow's kid died. Compared to CRY FOR JUSTICE, this scene is pure bliss.

P.S: What anyone else shocked by Dinah's black hair or was it just me?

Re: This isn't as bad as the Catwoman one

[mrstatham]

Nope. I knew Dinah had black hair because Smith's run on GA referenced it - I think it was something like Ollie trying to pull her wig off, only to find it was real hair that she'd grown out and dyed blonde since.

Re: This isn't as bad as the Catwoman one

[aeka]

Nope. Both mama and daughter Canaries have naturally black hair. Dinah II simply stopped wearing a wig at some point and just started bleaching her hair. :)

Re: This isn't as bad as the Catwoman one

[lieut_kettch]

The blonde wig was part of the BC's (both Dinah and her mom) disguise.

[golden_orange]

Have to say, as (I'm assuming, not being familiar with the original in context) fairly gratuitous fan-servicey sex scenes in comics go, this is pretty good.

I mean yeah, there's T&A all over the place, but that's not automatically a bad thing, and it's probably not something that a parent would want to find in a comic for kids, but I'm actually getting a nice vibe from this. It's two people who love or at least really like each other having fun with their clothes off. I think that's the key difference between this and Catwoman #1, which just comes off as a wee bit skeevy and weird.

If more of the depictions of sex that have been criticised in the New 52 were like this, then even if you did see more I think there'd be less to complain about overall.

[q99]

Yea, romantic even. And while Dinah gets more focus, what one can see of Ollie is pretty sexy.

This I had no problem with whatsoever. Heck, I'd love to see more sexiness like this!

[lilacsigil]

Well, this is nicely drawn, obviously consensual and enjoyable, actually relevant to the story and in a comic for adults, so why would anyone react particularly?

[filkertom]

Because back then comics were still considered Dangers To Children's Morality or somethin'.

Y'know what I notice? That Canary has a slight tummy. Just a little.

This is a fun, sexy, almost quiet scene. I miss this kinda stuff. [breaks out entire run of Phil Foglio's XXXenophile]

[whitesycamore]

Typically 90's. You can see loads of Dinah, but most of Ollie is conveniently covered up.

[mrstatham]

More like typical mainstream comics in general, I'd say.

[mrstatham]

On a random note, why do I get the surreal feeling that the tower blocks and buildings we can see are actively watching Dinah and Ollie have sex?

[whitesycamore]

And why does Ollie have a knobbly stone wall on the interior of his house? Is it to fulfil a medieval castle fantasy? Damn, that's tacky.

[celestialchild]

While it's obvious they're servicing Canary rather than Green Arrow, this otherwise actually a pretty beautiful scene. The art is nice, the sex is consensual and nonviolent... it seems a rare moment for comics.

[eyz]

Well, it was "more romantic" back then :P
Na, seriously. They're on an actual bed, not masked..and well, Green Arrow was a mature readers book back then. Unlike the sub-par A-Team for teens-like random book it is now...

[wizardru]

There was no reaction...for multiple reasons.

This was part of DC's new 'mature' line of comics. Bolstered by the success of stuff like TKDR, Watchmen and Swamp Thing, DC decided to see where they could go. Getting Mike Grell to basically flavor Green Arrow with Jon Sable Freelance was one such effort. This comic was ONLY available at direct retailers and had a 'mature' label on it...so in theory was only to be sold to adults. Of course, that slippery slope was still being explored (Swamp Thing towards the end of Moore's run was labeled 'Sophisticated Suspense', which Moore called 'almost a warning label' after fighting with DC about such things).

This is also much different in tone. This is two loving, consenting adults having casual intercourse in the bedroom and having playful chat that actually sounds like something people would say. It's not rage sex on a rooftop in fetish gear. ;) The main complaint about Catwoman #1 was the tone and how wildly OOC it appeared to be. Batman had like four new titles with the new 52 and somehow managed to not have wild unprotected sex with a supervillian in any of them...but in Catwoman #1 from unclothed start to semi-clothed finish, it appears that the entire issue was focused on that.

I'm assuming that Catwoman #1 was trying to paint their relationship as unhealthy or at least unusual. But the Green Arrow scene is more like what you'd see in a movie or even a daytime soap opera, while the Catwoman scene (in which Batman's pick-up line is 'I heard your apartment got firebombed.' and in which Catwoman describes Batman as angry, implies this happens regularly and the costumes 'mostly stay on'.) just comes across as weird for those characters.

Grell's reinterpretation of Green Arrow mostly boiled down to severing him from the greater DCU, removing almost all of the superhero elements (particularly powers and trick arrows) and making him a vigilante who uses lethal force. Catwoman's reboot turns her into a character who apparently 'needs' to have sex with Batman on rooftops as her primary attribute. Grell also is a better writer...at least in these issues.

Heck, maybe the greater outcry is that Catwoman #1 made concrete what had been implied for decades, but did it in an ugly way that left a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth. I mean, we know that Batman and Catwoman had sex in some continuities....that's how we got Helena Wayne. But Catwoman #1's version might just be too kinky for some folks. Me, I just don't like how it seems that Catwoman's only focus appeared to be on teh sexay...but then, I didn't buy the issue. So I've already voted on the issue. DC can make their own decisions based on the overall numbers.

[mullon]

I like Dinah with short black hair. And I normally don't like short black hair,

[mrosa]

Oh man, the 'Fred' panel is just too good!

[biod]

Hot, Mature, and Adorable. I see nothing wrong with this.

[pyrotwilight]

Wow. DC actually printed nipple? And you too, at least close the shades/windows if you're gonna get it on!

[ian_karkull]

This illustrates perfectly the difference between pornography and erotica.
It's aesthetically pleasing, playful and charming, rather than tittilating and exploitative.
In other words, I wouldn't mind seeing more sexuality depicted like that in comics (and that includes the excellent art style), rather than, say.. Red Hood and the Outlaws and that ilk.

[crabby_lioness]

What everyone else has said, plus its playful consensual sex between two adults in a long term relationship. At this point, this couple planned to be together for the rest of their lives.

[big_daddy_d]

I have nothing to add. Others have pretty much said it already. Two consenting adults who have been in a long term relationship and very much in love. They also know each other's identities so none of that "leave our masks on" bullshit. It doesn't do a disservice to either parties involved as well.

[liara_shadowsong]

This is nice. It's portraying a pair of adult superheroes who are in a long-term relationship (and the scene works fine for a committed exclusive relationship or a casual one, as long as there's the level of trust in and comfort with one another involved, really) and mutually decide that sex would be kind of nice right about now. Not skeevy at all, and rather well-drawn to boot. It would be lovely if more of the sex scenes being written now were like this. I mean, they are even making love in an actual bed, wow. I don't see what the industry appears to have against vanilla, to be honest.

[aeka]

I don't see what the industry appears to have against vanilla, to be honest.

Aside from the "vanilla isn't edgy enough to sell" bullshit, I don't either. As Alan Moore once said, the only thing any comicbook industry needs to do to generate interest and sell books is to tell good stories.