Nightwing: Dick and other Cringeworthy Comicbook Moments

[espanolbot]

Warning for nudity, sexism, racism and a horrible instant of "slut shaming".

From the second Nightwing Annual from 2007, here's Dick and Babara's first meeting following the events of the Killing Joke.



Shouldn't the kissing panel me more "Mfffffhhhhh" than "shh"?

Jennifer Walters at the receiving end of one of the worst "slut shamings" in Marvel comicbooks.


Context: the Leader is arguing that gamma radiation poisoning makes people not responsible for their actions, which is the logic used to excuse Dr Banner for the Hulk's frequent rampages, so legally his megalomaniac tendencies aren't his fault either. As more evidence of this, he has his lawyer bring up a full list of the people Jennifer slept with as She-Hulk versus ones as herself to be entered as evidence of how gamma radiation effects her judgement, or something.

Legal explanation or not, it still seems to be as about as liable in court as that time in Veronica Mars where a defence lawyer uses Mars' confidential medical records to damage her statement.

Wonder Woman had the patience of a saint in the old days...


Come to think of it, so must have Sue...


And Kathy Kane...


The Beast appears to be either a master of sarcasm, or he's trying to spare Jean's feelings.


Oh, Billy, no! Bad idea! Bad idea! No stop!


*facepalm* Editors, you're not helping!


Up Next, depending on if it's in the public domain, I'll be analysing this,

It's a terrible comic both in ways that should be obvious, and ways that aren't.

If it's not in the public domain, I'll be doing a special on Jack Chick instead.

Comments

[aeka]

Misogyny in comics has certainly evolved over the years. Though sometimes I can't decide if--in a way--it has gotten worse over the last two decades, with more graphic portrayals of violence against women and their bodies getting more and more sexualised over recent years than they ever were in the 1940s and 50s.

[flash_fan]

I may be misinformed, and please please correct me if I am wrong. But wouldn't it be sexist to have the female heroes beaten to bruises any less than the males?

[shadur]

with more graphic portrayals of violence against women and their bodies getting more and more sexualised over recent years than they ever were in the 1940s and 50s

On the other hand, people are also getting more aware of the fact that it isn't right.

Think of it this way: in the 1940s/50s, a comic like, say, Tarot, witch of the black rose would have engendered a lynch mob -- but for "indecency" and "pornography" and "loose morals attempting to lead us astray" because even so much as thinking about a woman in sexual terms when you weren't married or planning to marry her was sinful and wrong, because a woman's body should at all times be fully covered and proper.

Nowadays, it draws criticism because it's blatantly exploitative (and because of its lousy art and worse writing).

So yes, progress, of a sort.

[benicio127]

This is a good comment!

[kksimone]

My favorite part of Batman telling Kathy "One crime-fighter in the family is enough!" is that Robin is standing right there. (And the whole thing is Robin's nightmare)

[shadowpsykie]

is the she-hulk moment actually slut shaming? i mean i can see how it could be seen like that. I've taken law classes, and its low, but they are valid questions for the court to ask in this instance.... the LEADER though, the Leader's actions i definitely see as slut shaming...
(Also if this is obvious i'm sorry, i have been writing papers for the last few days... my brain is pretty near to mush)

[shadowpsykie]

you know what. never mind. i think you are right, even as a line of questioning for a court case, it may be a valid line, but it is definitely a case of slut shaming.

[nyadnar17]

I am still not sure what all constitutes slut shaming so please help me out here. If everything else about that situation was kept the same, but Jen had not acted ashamed of her list of conquest, would this still be a case of slut shaming?

[venatosapiens]

Attempted, perhaps?

[shadowpsykie]

If everything else about that situation was kept the same, but Jen had not acted ashamed of her list of conquest, would this still be a case of slut shaming?

I think so.

[freezer]

The She-Hulk scene and the Veronica Mars scene aren't similar past "Sexual history used to discredit a witness". Jen opened the door to that line of questioning by bringing up her sex life first (under American jurisprudence, a lawyer is allowed to leap on a witness' statement and attack things that would've otherwise been out of bounds, had the witness not brought it into play.)

Wheras in Veronica Mars, Aaron Echolls lawyer brought up Veronica's medical records. It was illegal for the lawyer to have even seen those records, and doubly so to enter them as evidence. That should've sparked an instant mistrial by the judge and charges brought against the defense attorney.

The fact that you can argue that that wasn't even the biggest WTF moment of that entire trial tells you what a clusterfuck it was.

ETA: I've only ever seen the Nightwing scene from the "afterglow" on. Seeing the lead-up makes Dick look like and even bigger... well, dick.

[q99]

-Wonder Woman had the patience of a saint in the old days...-

She never had to be worried about her secret identity.

"Diana can't possibly be Wonder Woman! Women are too dumb and weak to be strong and smart like Wonder Woman!"

[golden_orange]

Wow, Dick Grayson's kind of a prick, hey?

[red_cyclone]

I didn't know this had happened. Obviously I knoew it had all gone wrong, but, ugh.
It makes me like Dick and Babs as a couple even less.

[auggie18]

I know that this wasn't the point that the defense was trying to make, but what occurred to me first wasn't "She-Hulk alters Jennifer Walters' state of mind," but rather "more guys want to sleep with She-Hulk than Jennifer Walters."

[whitesycamore]

Lies! ALL men want to have sex with ALL women ALL the time. The only deciding factor in whether sex happens or not is if the lady can keep her legs closed.

GATEKEEPING - it's a woman's job.

[icon_uk]

And this is why I detest that Nightwing Annual.

[kirke_novak]

Some of these made me cringe but mostly they made me angry.

The Nightwing one made me go "Oh, they are so cute, oh that is just so wonderful, oh that is... FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[gn6196]

''Slut shaming " hmmm. I few weeks ago I watched a Program about a woman accused of murdering her husband. The deceased was a soldier and in the weeks following the death, the wife slept with about 6 other soldiers including a threesome with a married couple. It was brought into evidence and the soldiers were on the stand as well. They used her behavior to show that she was far from a grieving widow.I guess she was "slut shamed " but it was allowed to connect her actions to her supposed grief or lack of.

[whitesycamore]

And yet in gender-flipped cases I've heard people arguing the opposite - for example that a recently widowed man visiting prostitutes was proof of how much he loved his wife, and how much he missed her (for the record, I myself don't think that says anything about how much or how little he loved his wife).

We are still much more likely to view sex as a need for men, and one that is more or less separate from their moral character. Whereas in the case that you're talking about, it seems pretty clear that they aren't just trying to argue that sex is something a grieving widow wouldn't usually want* - they are trying to use the amount and perceived deviance of the sex (i.e. the threesome) as proof of what a weird and nasty and morally dubious woman she is.

The disturbing thing is that to many people that type of 'evidence' would be all too persuasive. They would be disgusted enough by the idea of a woman acting so far out from her prescribed role that they wouldn't need to hear anything else.

In effect, it could be argued that they are trying to shift the focus from the crime of murder to the crime of being a slut. Because once they've convinced the jury that she's guilty of the latter, it's much easier to convince them of the former as well.

*which is actually a very contentious claim in itself. We're well familiar with the concept of 'drowning your sorrows'; isn't the idea of taking solace in sex quite similar?

[eyz]

What the heck was that last cover?!? Is that real?! What the...°__°

[espanolbot]

Oh, it's real alright. Heh heh heh.

[crabby_lioness]

The first story is slightly mitigated by the fact that I've actually heard of that happening IRL.

Slightly. Very, very slightly. In that case the woman was the one getting married, and her old boyfriend had come over before the wedding to pick up some of his stuff that had been uncovered while she got ready to move into her new husband's home. He later confessed to a mutual friend, who threatened to personally kill him if he ever mentioned it to anyone again (and risked ruining their friends' happy marriage in the process).

The moral of the story, as told to me years later and an ocean away by the mutual friend was, "Some men are irredeemable assholes, and this is how you can tell".

[pyynk]

Uhmmm Hank? These are pliers. THAT is a screwdriver.

[espanolbot]

Hence why I assumed that Hank was being sarcastic with his resulting comment to Jean.

[silverzeo]

Hansi... was made by those pro-Nazis douches before WWII... the one who threaten Cap in his golden age?

[beoweasel]

It wasn't. Hansi was publish years after the Second World War. It was published by Spire Christian Comics, which didn't get started until 1972.

Essentially, the plot is about a German girl that's a Nazi, but eventually (I don't remember how, its' been ages since I read it.) rejects Nazism and embraces Jesus as her savior.

[gn6196]

There is an appropriate length of time that MOST people observe for mourning a death of a loved one. If your father started sleeping with other women the week after your mom died , it would hurt the surviving family members. Sex doesn't mean a woman is bad but sex immediately after losing a spouse is unusual.

Mod note!

[greenmask]

You're speaking in wide sweeps, my friend. This may be the accepted societal norm, and it may be used as "evidence" in more and/or less valid ways in real courts, but to argue too hard in favour of it squishes the right to individuality that we all enjoy. Particularly here, on a comic book forum.

I can see where you're coming from, that you're speaking hypothetically and how it began as relevant to the OP's scans, but I'm gonna put my mod hat on for a second and ask that you leave this thread to lie before it accidentally falls into slut shaming of it's own. Can do?

Cheers.

[starwolf_oakley]

Someone on Television Without Pity once said the "walk of shame" has less to do with a Puritanical view of sex and more to do with low standards. Maybe slut shaming is the same thing: less to do with numbers and more to do with "You did it with that guy?"

[fifthie]

Totally adding this one to my HANK PYM IS A WIFESBEATER file

[twospirit.blogspot.com]

I hadn't seen the Nightwing Annual before this, although it's been mentioned in comments how Dick slept with Barbara then gave her his wedding invitation. Still, seeing on the screen was a shocker...how in the world could that have ever been okay? T_T (I reject this continuity and replace it with one where Dick Grayson isn't a heartless Lothario.)