Three Preview Pages from Redhood and the Outlaws #4

[shadowpsykie]

You know... this is fast becoming one of my favorite books. the issues number one had aside (and actually one of the moments in issue 1 does actually seem to have reprocussions in this issue, still don't like that scene however). I have actually really been enjoying this book. this issue seems to focus on Starfire.

Rocafort's art is getting better too. at least where starfire is concerned she looks fierce!... still don't know how the hell that stays on though...

preview from Ifanboy.com http://ifanboy.com/articles/exclusive-preview-red-hood-and-the-outlaws-4/







I love Star's "Oh hell no!" look here



Love her similar "Bitch Please" look here? (is this an appropriate comment? i'm speaking fabulous not derogotory here...

i even made it into an Icon



Two versions!

Comments

[airawyn]

But the whole concept of "emasculation" is just really, really insulting. They're a team (whether or not they admit it). Roy wouldn't find it "emasculating" to be saved by Jason, so why does it have to be highlighted that Kori is something different? Especially since she's way more powerful than either of them.

I get that Lobdell was trying to deflect the idea, by having Roy bring it up and Jason shoot it down. But it's out of character for Roy, who is used to being around powerful women. And the idea that one third of their team thinks that another one third of their team isn't valuable enough to save his life is, well, problematic. Plus Jason's reply makes it sound like being dead is just slightly worse than being emasculated.

[shadowpsykie]

wouldn't he? he might not say it was emasculating, but he might say something similar if Jason saved him.... he's an addict, and from the addicts i have been around, emascualtion or thinking they are being emascualted is a big deal for them... its a really complicated situation... I'm not defending him, i'm just saying he's an ass yes. maybe he is saying this because Jason is around and he feels he has to. so i agree with you to a point. it is most likely out of character for Roy... however, the way Lobdell is playing him, a recovering addict with no filters (i have been around those people *Note not all addicts behave this way, but the ones i know have*) they say the first thing that comes to mind, and the first thing is usually not something they say thinking it through.

Plus Jason's reply makes it sound like being dead is just slightly worse than being emasculated.

THIS i don't agree with at all, you can't tell much from ton or facial signs (Red Hood and all). it really sounds to me more like he is saying, "Oh god Roy SHUT UP, she's saving our lives would you rather she leave you with the giant dragon? because i am okay with that"

At several points Jason has said that Starfire can take care of herself, and also relied are her as the "Muscle" they needed. thats' why i don't agree with this statement. i mean yeah i get interpretations are different, but from what i read, that's not how i read it. others may see it differently.

[airawyn]

I'm so glad there's a male character around to tell us she can take care of herself. Otherwise, we'd have to rely on the female character's words and actions, and you know how silly women can be!

[shadowpsykie]

her actions clearly show that she can take care of herself... we were talking about the words of Jason and Roy, so i used Jason's words. Starfire's actions are not in debate here. Starfire does not need Jason or Roy to validate her. She has been show in the comic to be more than capable of taking care of herself.

[airawyn]

We were discussing whether the text was sexist. Saying that a male character values Starfire does not disprove this. When a female character has to be validated by a man, that's sexism

Roy has never been presented as having a problem with strong women before, so adding this to his character is weird and unnecessary. I do not see any evidence that this is due to his recovery and I think it's pretty insulting to recovering addicts to say that his sudden sexism is part of his recovery process.

[shadowpsykie]

i clearly noted that NOT ALL addicts act like this. the addicts that I KNOW personally have acted in this way, My brother and my brother in law both went through periods of brutal honesty and reactionary speech because they have been told that lying, or holding back leads to more supression which is one of the triggers that may lead to using again. They are told, say what is on your mind.

what ever the case may be. it doesn't seem like we are going to agree on this. so i will just end my part of the conversation here by saying: that i know Redhood and the Outlaws is a problematic title. But i don't think it has no redeeming qualities, nor do i think that the entirety of it is sexisit, or sexist on purpose. And i also believe that the issues the series has is getting better each month. it does not mean there are not still issues. but i feel it is getting better.

[airawyn]

If you acknowledge that it's sexist, then why do you have a problem discussing that sexism?

I don't think Lodell intends it to be sexist. Intent doesn't matter. It's worse, actually, when he thinks he's writing something empowering and refuses to listen to criticism.

[shadowpsykie]

I feel like somewhere along the line we began talking about two different things, the lines of communication getting crossed some how...

Because it feels like you are calling the entire text sexist (and when i hear the word "Text" i think of a literary work which would mean to me the series itself and not just one issue or part of the dialogue.) For example "The Series Buffy the Vampire Slayer can be seen as a feminist Text" as opposed to parts of the text (which would include dialogue and an issue as a whole, or in the case of BtVS an episode) ,

i do not agree that the entire text (the series) is a sexist text. Yes Parts of it are, and i am more than willing to talk about the parts you feel are. but blanket condemnation of an entire text as sexist is not something i am comfortable doing.

I do believe that intent DOES matter. In fact, intent is VERY important. as far as criticism, yes he should listen to criticism. and i think he is because the story has been getting increasingly better, and the sexist moments have been lessened each issue.

over all this discussion is getting too heated for me. it feels like you want me to agree completely with you, and i can't do that. It also feels like you personally attacked me a few posts up by implying that you believe i think "Women are Silly" which is very far from the truth. I like to debate, but i don't like to argue and i feel like because of miscommunication this discussion is turning into an argument.

[shadowpsykie]

oh also i would like to be clear, yeah Roy saying that was sexist on his part. i don't think it was Lobdell being sexist. i think lobdell was trying to show that Roy, unfiltered, could be sexist. was it needed? no, probably not. is Roy an ass for saying that. yes.

[sistermagpie]

To me it reads like a line that indicates that the mindset of the comic is a real throwback. Even putting aside that in the 80s when certain blatantly sexist attitudes were even more common and sometimes very apparent in NTT, Dick was fine being carried baby-style by Kori and respecting Kori as superhero far stronger than he was.

Now it's 2011 and we're going for stale jokes about how being saved by a girl is emasculating. Even when the girl is Starfire. It just seems like it validates v_various's impression of the comic as having a boy mentality. Like the implication is that it's not surprising that Roy the lesser of the two guys is going to say that--he's the guy who's less smooth, the one with less filter. Jason will show he's more secure and mature by pointing out he could be dead.

It shows Jason as the More Mature of the two guys, the one delivering the important lesson line (whether or not Kori should be able to show she can take care of herself, the comic feels the need to have Jason tell us). But that still leaves one superhero normalizing the attitude to begin with, and while Jason's response makes Roy look somewhat foolish (would you rather be dead?) it's not as gob-smacked as it might have been (he's not reacting to Roy's line as if he just said something so embarassingly sexist he can't even believe he said it.

In general, it sort of reminds me of the issues with Damian's sexist language in the past. Sure it's presented as Damian being his bratty self, but it's also kind of implied to be the default attitude of the guy who hasn't been Taught Better or is slightly insecure or whatever. Damian doesn't get the same freedom with racist language, and Roy is a good guy. I really do think there's just a very high (and getting higher) tolerance for sexism in these comics than there is in many places in the real world.

It's presented, imo, as something you're not supposed to say, but with the understanding that much of the audience will find it funny and possibly relate to it anyway.

[shadowpsykie]

okay, i can see yoru points here and i agree with most of them.

while i don't see it as bad as Damian's words or actions (that... that was... yeah that was bad...) i do see the characterization of both Roy and Jason as formulaic (too formulaic) and more time needing to be spent on Kori (there have been good things, but not enough as i think there could be.)

[thefiretonight]

That whole point with Damian is something that's bothered me forever. He gets called out for calling girls fat but not for calling them harlots?