Catwoman #4

[aeka]

We learn a little bit more about Selina's past and are introduced to more people in her life. At best it appears as though the Frank Miller prostitute origin has been retconned out of continuity. So I guess one point for Winick?










Heh, I don't know about anyone else, but I thought Selina looked a bit like Sailor Star Fighter in those last few panels.

Anyway, from the last few pages of Catwoman #4, an interview with the boys behind this book:

1. What do you love about writing/drawing these characters?

Judd: Catwoman is brilliant, damaged, sophisticated, crass, and a born survivor who also seems at times to have a death wish. The complexities leap her.

Guillem: I like lonely characters so I can focus on the body language, facial expressions, how he or she interacts with the background.

2. What is your favourite thing about your part in the New 52?

Guillem: It will be long remembered and I'm incredibly happy I got the chance to be a part of it. I feel I'm adding something to the character, putting a bit of my own vision of Catwoman in the book.

Judd: The fresh stories we get to tell, how we get to hit the ground running, and how we can welcome new readers. All the stories are open to EVERYONE.

3. Can you tease the villains they will be fighting in upcoming issues?

Judd: Well, Catwoman's a criminal, so her adversaries cross a few spectrums. She'll have a run-in with an ugly mobster named BONE, have a budding romance with a member of the Gotham Police Department, and OH YEAH--there's Batman!

Guillem: See Judd's answer. I just want some of the villains we have in the book to stay for a long time because they're great. I love Bone.

4. What new things are you doing with these characters?

Judd: We are getting back to the core of Selina Kyle. She is, first and foremost, a thief. She steals not to survive, but because she digs it.

5. How will you shock readers?

Guillem: Every issue I've drawn to date has a very strong surprise or cliffhanger at the end. I'm always shocked when I read Judd's scripts.

Judd: As of Catwoman #1, pardon the pun, but the cat's out of the bag on one of our MAJOR surprises--the Catwoman/Batman romance.

6. What is your favourite page in the first few issues and why?

Judd: Am I allowed to say ALL of them? If I HAVE to choose, it's page 3 of the first issue. Catwoman crashing out her window in a hail of gunfire, half in her costume, whip in one hand, cat carrier in the other. This says EVERYTHING about our book and Catwoman. Dangerous, sexy, and unexpected.

Guillem: Issue #1, page1. All started there. I hope it takes a long time to finish.

Comments

[jlbarnett]

betcha Gwen's a cop now

[rocketlindy]

Hadn't thought of that, though it makes sense. I think it would be interesting if she were a cop, but not a very good one--like, maybe Selina figures it out right away, and is kinda friends with her anyway.

I should stop envisioning how I want this series to play out, because that's just setting my self up for disappointment.

Anyway.

[q99]

-At best it appears as though the Frank Miller prostitute origin has been retconned out of continuity. So I guess one point for Winick?-

I hope so, never liked that one!

[salinea]

am I the only one who likes Selina as a former sex worker?

[aeka]

I don't mind the idea of Selina being a sex worker, but not at the hands of Frank Miller who isn't known to have a positive attitude towards sex workers or women in general.

[salinea]

Ah, well. Okay. I didn't read the part written by Miller.

[aeka]

Yeah, The Dark Knight Returns particularly comes to mind. Wish I could brain bleach the scene of Selina being brutally beaten by the Joker out of my mind.

[salinea]

Yeah, but I just don't associate that origin with Miller - she's had a lot of stories written about her which includes that since.

[aeka]

Yeah fortunately her past as a prostitute was better handled by later writers who used it to build Selina's character. I especially liked that Ed Brubaker brought her back to the East End and used her past there as motivation for serving as 'protector' to that part of Gotham.

[salinea]

yeah, that's the main run of Catwoman i've read, and it was made of awesome ♥

[omgwtflolbbqbye]

I also think it was used to good effect in Darwyn Cooke's 'prologue/prequel' story to Brubaker's run, "Selina's Big Score"- thinking about the speech by the abused gf about 'basic human dignity' especially.

[q99]

I doubt the 'only' one... but most of her other origins click with me and that one doesn't.

I was introduced to her in B:tAS and that definitely played a role.

[salinea]

What are the other back-stories you find work better?

[q99]

Earth-2 works for me well. She's a socialite (so in the same circles as Bruce Wayne, with the parallels there) in an abusive relation, leaves him and breaks into his vault to steal his valuable jewels as she goes, and finds she's gained a taste for the experience.

Or the Batman Returns one, where she's a loyal corporate type, finds a nasty secret from her boss, is betrayed and almost killed by him, and something snaps and she embraces a mentality almost 180 from her old, being an untethered and free like her cats.

[salinea]

I remember the movie, yes, I don't think I like this one very much. The Earth-2 sounds... kind of so-so, but okay enough.

[q99]

The thing I like about the E-2 one is: One, she's a thrillseeker. She doesn't steal money because she needed it or someone else needs it (though once she has it, sure, she'll help people with it), but because of the challenge and excitement of the theft. Two, her origin is directly tied into why she's a *thief*. The Miller one explains why she can fight, but it's like she just kinda fell into becoming the world's greatest thief, the origin feels like she should've become female Daredevil who patrolled one area of the city and fights crime rather than traveling the world and stealing diamonds. Finally, the social thing, lets her trade barbs with Bruce before they dance as Bat and Cat, which is something I always loved.


I'm always a fan of Bat villains being some sort of parallel/mirror to Batman too. Joker is chaos to Batman's law. Two-Face is the dichotomy of Bruce and Batman. And Catwoman (at least to start with in her villain days) is someone who has the freedom, excitement, and skills of being a masked vigilante but doing so purely for the thrill of it rather than to protect others.

[aeka]

To be honest, I don't think her past was explored all that much in the pre-Crisis continuity. On Earth-2 she was originally a house wife who left her abusive husband and became a jewel thief after she found the success of stealing back her jewellery from her husband's vault very thrilling. Prior to that she fabricated the story about being flight attendent who became Catwoman due to amnesia in order to start her life over. I actually posted that story a while back, which is also one of my favourites from the pre-Crisis continuity.

[q99]

One thing I like about the E-2 one is it clearly explains why she's a *thief*, since the cat burglar thing is such a large part of the concept.

The Miller origin, I get something of a disconnect.

"Hard life... I must train to protect myself and my friends... oh, there's Batman, what an inspiration... thief!"

Why she becomes a mask is obvious, but why she becomes the world's greatest jewel thief less-so.

[aeka]

I also liked that in the Earth-2 origin, her stealing her abusive husband's material wealth was treated as a triumph over him since that was the only loss he understood. It's kind of like the story where Selina steals ALL of Hush's money in response to him cutting out her heart to get back at Bruce. It was very, very sweet revenge. ♥

[q99]

Exactly!

[jlbarnett]

well there's only so many reasons to do that sort of stuff. SHe's not a vigilante so good guy is out. She's not amurderer etc. so...

[q99]

Still, it feels like I'm missing a step in how she became a career high-end thief.

[sistermagpie]

Agreed. A thief is a specific thing. Not that a person can't be a sex worker and a thief or one and then the other. But I like my Catwoman origins to be specifically based on theft because that's her raison d'etre. With Frank Miller it's hard for me not to just think that she's a sex worker because she's a woman character and a thief because even he knew he had to get her back to Catwoman=Catburglar.

I love the mirror to Bruce Wayne being that his thrills are associated with this mission to protect and law and order and helping people keep what's valuable to them when Selina's is taking what *she* wants and causing chaos. That's why she's a great foil to him, imo. A past as a dominatrix just brings nothing to her to me--she's not even dominating as a criminal. She's a cat burglar, in and out and nobody can touch her, with a quick scratch of the claws if trapped so she can get away. It's a pretty pure archetype and I think that's one reason she's so iconic.

[q99]

Well said.

I could see the origin fitting with some character (Mia-Speedy's a sex worker and I love her), but Catwoman doesn't care about dominating and doesn't seem to line up with the origin much.

[whitesycamore]

With Frank Miller it's hard for me not to just think that she's a sex worker because she's a woman character

This. I would personally expand that far beyond Frank Miller and his fixation on sex workers, and say that almost all heroines with sexually abusive backstories have one just because they're woman characters, and because superhero comics are a misogynistic genre.

...But then I think about reality, and how so many real women have sexually abusive pasts essentially *because* they are women, and how we live in a misogynistic world. And then my head explodes with anger and confusion.

tl;dr: I'm not sure what the right way to portray sex work, and sexual abuse, and violence against women in comics is, but I'm certain that Frank Miller's way is NOT it.

[aeka]

...But then I think about reality, and how so many real women have sexually abusive pasts essentially *because* they are women, and how we live in a misogynistic world. And then my head explodes with anger and confusion.

This. I actually had this conversation with my friend yesterday, and I think the thing I find most alarming is how many people--women included--accept this as normal. I can't decide if this is due to a lack of awareness, or the belief that 'nothing can be done about it,' or both.

[whitesycamore]

Yeah. And because of that I can almost - sort of - understand the perspective that, because sexual violence is common against women in real life, it's realistic for sexual violence to be commonplace in comics.

I'll even admit that I experience a bit of cognitive dissonance when I'm rolling my eyes at some superheroine's Tragic Backstory, and then I remember that hey, I'm a woman who was sexually abused, and also there was that one time when I used to be a sex worker.

I think the difference is that superhero comics are supposed to be escapist fiction. Seeing a female character have her backstory determined by her vagina and all the nasty stuff that can happen to it doesn't feel very fun and escapist to me. Some people argue that it's empowering to show a woman *overcoming* that kind of past, but tbh most of the time it seems like she only had that backstory in the first place because some dude thought it was suitably gritty and titillating.

I just can't accept the "but it's realistic!" argument because I don't believe that male writers give heroines these backstories in order to make any kind of statement about misogyny. It feels more like they just think it's... sexy. :/

[aeka]

Yeah one of the things I noticed right away about superhero comics from the post-Crisis era in particular, is that writers attempted to depart from the 'escapist' aspect of comics by calling attention to real world issues and making the characters more psychologically complex in order to make the stories 'feel more real and relevant.' Admittedly this wasn't always executed successfully.

I do agree that many of these tragic backstories for female characters seem to be done purely for shock value and 'edge' rather than to make any real comment about misogyny. When comics DO attempt to call attention to serious issues, most of the time they skim the surface on the problem at hand and hardly ever comment on pervasiveness of the attitudes behind them.

[benicio127]

THIS comment~!

[benicio127]

tl;dr: I'm not sure what the right way to portray sex work, and sexual abuse, and violence against women in comics is, but I'm certain that Frank Miller's way is NOT it.

What I can't believe you don't like Frank Miller's women... I mean c'mon it's not like his ASSBAR Wondy isn't a strawfeminist or anything...

I love it when people tell me that she's a *strong* female character. I'm like but! but! she's actually kind of stereotype of the evil feminist! She hates men, so that's how you know she's a real feminist.

[schmevil]

I've always liked the idea that we might not know her actual origin. Selina just making up stories about her origin, rather than telling the truth.

[salinea]

Interesting. But isn't that already The Joker's shtick?

[aeka]

I came down here just to say that, lol.

In all fairness though, she's been known to lie about her past as well so it wouldn't be out of character for her to do so when it's convenient.

[salinea]

Yeah, it definitely fits her :)

[eyz]

I was ok with it.
Plus taking it out of continuity means taking out Holly too - which I luved very much. I miss Holly, even her short time as Catwoman!

So, boo to re-retconning that out..... :(

[salinea]

OMG yes, Holy D: argh, fuck that reboot.

[darkknightjrk]

I don't see any reason why Holly has to be taken out--even IF the sex work stuff is taken out of continuity (which I'm still not convinced is the case), who's to say that Selina only had one friend in Holly?

I do hope we see Holly at some point--if not just so her last story doesn't have to be freaking Countdown.

(frozen)

[saralakali]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I absolutely hate that origin for her. Regardless of how many people try to defend that origin and sex workers, the first impression that the average fan (not to mention the average non-fan) is that Selina is a hooker with all the nastiness that that word implies. This series has done absolutely nothing to dispel that image and in fact only throws gasoline on the flames.

(frozen)

[aeka]

I know this series is problematic, but your comments here scream of slut-shaming, which I believe goes against this comm's ethos.

(frozen)

[saralakali]

Then you didn't really read my comment.

Stop trying to silence me.

(frozen)

[whitesycamore]

Did *you* read your comment? Stop trying to co-opt the concept of 'silencing' in order to dodge accountability.

(frozen) Mod Note

[salinea]

Thread frozen, and under discussion by the Mod team.

[benicio127]

Nope! I liked it as well -- moreso the Ed Brubaker run. Looooove that run.

[rocketlindy]

I'm actually warming up to this series, though slowly. Hopefully Lola's death is a turning point towards a more introspective, less fetish-sex-kitten-ish Catwoman. Each issue has been a tiny bit better than the last, IIRC.

[benicio127]

Lola's death has been... a very frustrating and problematic point in this series, imo. The art and continuous repetition of showing Lola's dead body (along with March's art -- why are Lola's clothes ripped up her thigh? It's this weird sexualization of a dead woman) have this very disturbing element. :|

[aeka]

I agree about Lola's death (though I 'fridged' is more like it). I also found it equally upsetting that Selina's first supporting character was offed before we even had a chance to know more about her. I found her character very intriguing at the start of her series that I wanted her to stick around longer. :(

[benicio127]

Totally agree. I don't just think she was fridged, but there's this really icky glorification of sexualized violence against women (mostly with regard to Guillem March's art -- there's a scene where Selina is beaten and the book ends with her bleeding, on the floor, and ass up -- why? Why pose her like that??), and I was disturbed as to how hard they are trying to hammer home the impact of Lola's death by repeatedly showing her dead body. It didn't really help the story so much as it just resorted to sensationalism.

[aeka]

Yes I felt that was really unnecessary. Truthfully I was already disturbed by the end of #2 alone where Lola was shown bound and beaten to a chair with a bullet hole in her head, that by #3, at that point it was just finishing the whole cake. I think out of all the issues I've read of this series, #3 is by far my least favourite. I wasn't impressed with its execution alone.

[benicio127]

Completely agreed! It's not even just the art, it's the constantly showing Lola's body. If they want to illicit sympathy/emotion, isn't there another way? Showing flashbacks, showing photos of Lola and Selina hanging out? Playing with kitties? And I think that this isn't just an artist issue -- the writer *does* direct the artist with regard to panels sometimes.

Honestly, I want someone else writing this series. Aaaaaagh! Kathryn Immonen would be so good on Selina. If I heard this announcement, I think I would curl into a ball of happy-joy.

[rocketlindy]

I don't mean that the death and scene showing her dead were good, or even defensible. I still hope that the purpose of that scene, at least in part, was motivating Selina to change. I would like the death to mean something, and have more complex ramifications than "Catwoman is sad for two or three issues."

[chipsnopotatoes]

Me neither.

Rumor is the prostitute origin was done under an unfriendly editorial regime who sought to diminish her popularity by reimagining her as such (think Catholic Church & Mary Magdalene). Unfortunately for them, Batman Returns happened and the effect was just the opposite.

[q99]

Whether or not that's true I gotta give Batman Returns props :)

[darkknightjrk]

Where did you hear that?

[chipsnopotatoes]

From old time Catwoman fans:

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000242939&start=30&tstart=30

See mycroft and zod's posts.

And an anonymous powerpoint floating in the net:
http://www.slideshare.net/branding-disasters/destroying-your-brand

[karthzon]

That slideshow is kinda garbage though.

[chipsnopotatoes]

I thought it was spot on. The motivations behind the scenes suddenly make sense.

[karthzon]

Seriously? I thought it was immature, self-important and very one-sided, selectively acknowledging only things that supports the point it's trying to make.

[maxisanacorn]

I just want Darwyn Cooke's Catwoman. I just want it.

[eyz]

I miss that excellent run too :(

[darkknightjrk]

"it appears as though the Frank Miller prostitute origin has been retconned out of continuity"

For one thing, I don't see anything that directly contradicts with Year One right now.

For another, she wasn't a prostitute in Year One. Look at her first appearance in that story when Bruce is in disguise in the East End--her demeanor, her clothing, the way she's addressing her client and the way he's replying--she's clearly a dominatrix. While that's in the realm of sex work, that's not the same as a prostitute.

[salinea]

For another, she wasn't a prostitute in Year One. Look at her first appearance in that story when Bruce is in disguise in the East End--her demeanor, her clothing, the way she's addressing her client and the way he's replying--she's clearly a dominatrix. While that's in the realm of sex work, that's not the same as a prostitute.
What?

[darkknightjrk]

I couldn't find a full page, but here's the gist of what I'm talking about:

[salinea]

That's not...

What i don't get is your "Selina wasn't a prostitute because she was a dominatrix" thing.

[darkknightjrk]

The big difference, from what I understand, is that dominatrices (I think that's the plural for that) typically don't exchange in intercourse with their client. It's literally just whipping, beating, and humiliating the client for their pleasure. Again, it's typically grouped in with sex work, but it is of a different vein.

[salinea]

I am frankly very ill at ease by the fact so many people use this (which may or may not be true of Femdom sex worker, I assume it might depends from people to peopel, really) to distantiate their vision of Selina from the vision they have of a prostitute. It's like they think that having intercourse for money is lowly and degrading in a way that D/s for money isn't - which is both a rather narrow vision of what sex is, and derogatory to sex workers who do have intercourse.

[darkknightjrk]

That definitely wasn't my intent to say one is more "lowly" than the other--my feeling is that the only thing that makes it degrading comes from the efforts of our lawmakers to make it illegal and crack down on it. I just think there's enough differences to make that distinction.

[salinea]

okay.

[rocketlindy]

While it's icky when people try to "defend" the origin by making out like being a dominatrix is somehow "better" than other kinds of sex work, I think that it does make more sense for the character (more sense, not lots of sense.)

Headcanon says that Selina just likes shiny things and thrills. I like to have characters without so much Freudian baggage.

[darkknightjrk]

Like I said, I wasn't trying to make it that one is better than the other--just that there are differences in terms of the dynamics of the acts.

And I don't think of it as so much Freudian baggage and more shaping her more to be a dark mirror of Bruce. In a lot of ways, she represents both the good and the bad that came from Batman appearing in Gotham City.

[auggie18]

I always thought of it more as people clarifying what exactly she did. Like, if you were a hostess at a restaurant and someone referred to your job as a waitress, you'd correct them. It's not denigration, just clarification.

[salinea]

Point.

[katya]

This. I've known a good number of women in the sex industry and they are damn proud of what they do. They don't take kindly to being called a prostitute if they're really a dominatrix, and they don't like women who perform sex acts for money trying to claim that they're strippers instead of prostitutes.

It's like, I work as a nanny and some families will use the words "nanny" and "babysitter" interchangeably, and that pisses off a lot of nannies because it's not the same thing.

[whitesycamore]

It's like, I work as a nanny and some families will use the words "nanny" and "babysitter" interchangeably, and that pisses off a lot of nannies because it's not the same thing.

The main difference is that nannies sing beautifully/have magic powers, right? ;D

I'm still waiting for popular culture to realise that a professional dominatrix and a woman who happens to have a dominant sexuality are not interchangeable, and will generally not behave the same way in the bedroom.

For anyone who's still confused - one of them performs dominance in a way designed to satisfy male desires in exchange for financial reward, and the other engages in dominant behaviour/fantasies in order to get *herself* off. Some women may do both, but sex and sex *work* are still not the same thing.

[nezchan]

I can't be the only one envisioning Phoney Bone as a gangster here.

[dejadrew]

Motto! Which... would be bizarrely awesome....

[wonderwomanhero]

Can you please stop it? Your comments are offensive...

[saralakali]

This was my first comment of two. Asking me to "stop it" because my comments will be offensive to you later is not appropriate

I'm sorry you find my comments offensive. I should think it pretty obvious that I find this series offensive. And I'm done with you.

[aeka]

Asking me to "stop it" because my comments will be offensive to you later is not appropriate

Offensive comments are not allowed on the comm, period. The goal of the comm is to be more inclusive to other groups of people, which includes avoiding using derogatory language that are exclusive to any particular group, and displaying any of the *isms and phobia mentalities are especially discouraged.

No your first comment that you deleted wasn't offensive, but your second one most definitely was for the reason I already stated. And considering *who* you responded to earlier with your hooker comment, it is a good idea to be more tactful in the way you address any issues you have without being offensive.

[saralakali]

The fact remains that she is scolding me for something I hadn't done at this point. That is offensive to me when the time stamp is clearly posted at the top of every comment. (You expected me to know that salina was a mod just because it's posted on the profile of the comm, so I think you can see why I found this offensive.) Your taking me to task here when the original thread has been frozen is offensive. That's okay with me, but don't be surprised if the mods freeze this thread as well. You started it.

And my point remains that the comic in question, itself, violates the ethos of the comm.

Since we seem to be going around the mod's wishes here, I'll reply to both of the objections raised by my second comment and its frozen thread even though they were raised by more than one person. I own all my words, whether other people find them offensive or not. I'm sorry that you think that my pointing out that Frank Miller was engaging in whoreaphobia by making Selina any kind of sex worker at all was a reflection of my own beliefs. (Yes, I do realize you used the term "slut shaming". You used the wrong phrase.) As was every writer who left that part of Selina's origin in-canon and everyone who defended it.

Why? Because it automatically codes Selina as a villain. (Yes, I know Mia Dearden was a sex worker at one point. That was written in yet another way that reveals the whoreaphobia of the writer.) It's lazy writing. It's definitely a "show, don't tell" plot device that takes advantage of the fact that the average comics reader does not differentiate between kinds of sex workers (without having to point out that there isn't a moral or ethical difference between kinds of sex workers--dommes who have sex with their clients aren't "worse people" than those that don't) and makes the assumptions that I spelled out in my second comment. (That was kind of convoluted. Let me recap: Writing Selina as a sex worker of any sort is lazy writing because it trades on people's assumptions that sex workers are all nasty people because they are in the sex trade. It is a shortcut that relies on people's bigotry.)

Saying that there exist people who make judgements based on the fact that a character is (or was) a sex worker is not the same as engaging in slut-shaming. Using the word "hooker" to underline my point is not slut-shaming. It is illustrating my point. So is the fact that you objected to it, but I don't hold that against you. It is an incendiary word. So is the phrase "sex worker" but I suppose we have to call those men and women that perform in those varied occupations something.

Had I known that I was answering a mod's direct question, I wouldn't have bothered. There's very little "speaking truth to power" that is allowed to occur in this comm. The fact that salina has frozen the previous thread without the mods rendering judgement or otherwise commenting on it really smacks of salina using her mod authority because I dared to disagree with her. The fact that I used the word "hooker" (which I noticed you used as well) only provided the excuse.

And now I'm done with you. I shall go back to my previous policy of not commenting, so you won't have to be offended by my words.

[salinea]

Had I known that I was answering a mod's direct question, I wouldn't have bothered. There's very little "speaking truth to power" that is allowed to occur in this comm. The fact that salina has frozen the previous thread without the mods rendering judgement or otherwise commenting on it really smacks of salina using her mod authority because I dared to disagree with her. The fact that I used the word "hooker" (which I noticed you used as well) only provided the excuse.

I froze the thread because it was threatening to descend into a nasty argument, which we would rather avoid on scans_daily. We have yet to render a judgement over the issue and unfreeze the thread because we mod this community by consensus, and getting a consensus between several mods at this time of the year when most people are a little bit busy is difficult to do quickly. All my apologies for the delay. The fact that you were answering me directly, or disagreeing with me, has absolutely nothing to do with us freezing and discussing it, I assure you.

[aeka]

1. I acknowledged that your original comment wasn't offensive.

2. You told wonderwomanhero that it was 'inappropriate for him/her to tell you to stop because you were being offensive.' I agree s/he was out of line here, but the point remains offensive remarks are not tolerated on the comm and you will get called out on them when they are made. That's how the comm works.

3. Your original comment to salinea outright stated that your dislike for Selina's sex worker origin had to do with the fact that people view the profession as something 'nasty' and that her current depiction is doing nothing to dispel this 'nasty' image. By doing so you are first accepting the idea that sex work is a 'nasty' business, and you're further implying that Selina being a sexual character puts her further into the 'hooker' image which falls right into the slut-shaming mentality. When you make a comment like that, you're bound to enter a very dangerous territory.

[chipsnopotatoes]

Sara, we're on the same side of this debate.

I dislike the prostitute origin immensely as well. Recasting a strong woman confident in her sexuality as a hooker/whore/prostitute seems to be the default response of insecure men who feel the need to take them down a peg or two. History is littered with instances like this (if you haven't yet, read Cleopatra, A Life and you'll recognize the same tactics by Roman historians).

Unfortunately, when people express anger over this, it is (mis)interpreted as "slut shaming". Well, just to point out what real "slut shaming" looks like, here's a link to some of the classiest comments over at Bleeding Cool:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/48242-batjanuary-give-hoot-%5Bredacted%5D-mystery.html#post251503

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/48242-batjanuary-give-hoot-%5Bredacted%5D-mystery-2.html#post251541

[aeka]

Unfortunately, when people express anger over this, it is (mis)interpreted as "slut shaming".

The problem with this argument though is that there ARE people who *do* in fact call attention to the sex worker origin in ways that are just as equally misogynistic. For example, it's one thing to call attention to the fact that the media is downright fascinated with sensationalising sexual violence and abuse against women (and media portrayals of female sex workers in particular are far from positive), and another to imply that sex work in itself is degrading to a female character, and that a female character being sexual keeps her under the 'hooker' umbrella. Unfortunately both cases do fall into the slut-shaming mentality because in both cases the person is implying that a woman engaging in sexual activity is a degrading thing. In the case of female sex workers in particular, there's also this pervasive mentality that a woman who sells her body for sex makes her less of a person, which is just as harmful.

I don't disagree that Frank Miller's portrayal of Selina as a sex worker is misogynistic and problematic; I'm not fond of that origin myself for that reason. But implying that Selina being a sex worker in and of itself is degrading to her character, or that being a sexual character does nothing to 'shed off her hooker image' is just as equally misogynistic in concept, because it again caters to the idea that a woman engaging in sexual activity is a degrading and dirty thing.

I hope that makes better sense.

[chipsnopotatoes]

[i]and another to imply that sex work in itself is degrading to a female character[/i]

I'm just rereading her clarification above:

[i]Saying that there exist people who make judgements based on the fact that a character is (or was) a sex worker is not the same as engaging in slut-shaming[/i]

and I have to say that while we may not like it, that's the unfortunate reality. I actually have been collecting nasty comments culled from forums about Selina (I can forward on request). It seems that her detractors use that as the number one ammo for insulting her (some can get very creative, some are just the run of the mill variety). Strangely enough, I don't see anyone who likes that origin defending her or calling them out.

[i]and that a female character being sexual keeps her under the 'hooker' umbrella[/i]

That I don't agree with.

[aeka]

I don't disagree that sex worker phobia is a sad reality that's pervasive in society; that wasn't what made her original comment problematic. In her original comment she expressed her dislike of the origin on the basis that people view sex work as a degrading thing and that people would see Selina as a 'hooker.' What's more is that that she went on to say 'This series has done absolutely nothing to dispel that image and in fact only throws gasoline on the flames.' This ironically reiterates the negative attitude that sex work is degrading, and therein lies the problem.

[chipsnopotatoes]

Marjorie Liu! Marjorie Liu! She would rock Selina. Have they announced what her next assignment is at Marvel? If not, now is the time to poach.