scans_daily: Catwoman #4

Diane Darcy (

aeka) wrote in

scans_daily,
@ 2011-12-28 07:32 pm UTC

Entry tags:

char: catwoman/selina kyle, creator: guillem march, creator: judd winick, title: catwoman

Catwoman #4

We learn a little bit more about Selina's past and are introduced to more people in her life. At best it appears as though the Frank Miller prostitute origin has been retconned out of continuity. So I guess one point for Winick?

Reload Image

Heh, I don't know about anyone else, but I thought Selina looked a bit like Sailor Star Fighter in those last few panels.

Anyway, from the last few pages of Catwoman #4, an interview with the boys behind this book:

1. What do you love about writing/drawing these characters?

Judd: Catwoman is brilliant, damaged, sophisticated, crass, and a born survivor who also seems at times to have a death wish. The complexities leap her.

Guillem: I like lonely characters so I can focus on the body language, facial expressions, how he or she interacts with the background.

2. What is your favourite thing about your part in the New 52?

Guillem: It will be long remembered and I'm incredibly happy I got the chance to be a part of it. I feel I'm adding something to the character, putting a bit of my own vision of Catwoman in the book.

Judd: The fresh stories we get to tell, how we get to hit the ground running, and how we can welcome new readers. All the stories are open to EVERYONE.

3. Can you tease the villains they will be fighting in upcoming issues?

Judd: Well, Catwoman's a criminal, so her adversaries cross a few spectrums. She'll have a run-in with an ugly mobster named BONE, have a budding romance with a member of the Gotham Police Department, and OH YEAH--there's Batman!

Guillem: See Judd's answer. I just want some of the villains we have in the book to stay for a long time because they're great. I love Bone.

4. What new things are you doing with these characters?

Judd: We are getting back to the core of Selina Kyle. She is, first and foremost, a thief. She steals not to survive, but because she digs it.

5. How will you shock readers?

Guillem: Every issue I've drawn to date has a very strong surprise or cliffhanger at the end. I'm always shocked when I read Judd's scripts.

Judd: As of Catwoman #1, pardon the pun, but the cat's out of the bag on one of our MAJOR surprises--the Catwoman/Batman romance.

6. What is your favourite page in the first few issues and why?

Judd: Am I allowed to say ALL of them? If I HAVE to choose, it's page 3 of the first issue. Catwoman crashing out her window in a hail of gunfire, half in her costume, whip in one hand, cat carrier in the other. This says EVERYTHING about our book and Catwoman. Dangerous, sexy, and unexpected.

Guillem: Issue #1, page1. All started there. I hope it takes a long time to finish.

(Read 86 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only)

	no subject saralakali 2011-12-30 12:54 am UTC (link)
	This was my first comment of two. Asking me to "stop it" because my comments will be offensive to you later is not appropriate I'm sorry you find my comments offensive. I should think it pretty obvious that I find this series offensive. And I'm done with you. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 8 comments) (Show 8 comments)

no subject

aeka
2011-12-30 04:40 pm UTC (link)

Asking me to "stop it" because my comments will be offensive to you later is not appropriate

Offensive comments are not allowed on the comm, period. The goal of the comm is to be more inclusive to other groups of people, which includes avoiding using derogatory language that are exclusive to any particular group, and displaying any of the *isms and phobia mentalities are especially discouraged.

No your first comment that you deleted wasn't offensive, but your second one most definitely was for the reason I already stated. And considering *who* you responded to earlier with your hooker comment, it is a good idea to be more tactful in the way you address any issues you have without being offensive.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 7 comments) (Show 7 comments)

no subject

saralakali
2011-12-30 08:40 pm UTC (link)

The fact remains that she is scolding me for something I hadn't done at this point. That is offensive to me when the time stamp is clearly posted at the top of every comment. (You expected me to know that salina was a mod just because it's posted on the profile of the comm, so I think you can see why I found this offensive.) Your taking me to task here when the original thread has been frozen is offensive. That's okay with me, but don't be surprised if the mods freeze this thread as well. You started it.

And my point remains that the comic in question, itself, violates the ethos of the comm.

Since we seem to be going around the mod's wishes here, I'll reply to both of the objections raised by my second comment and its frozen thread even though they were raised by more than one person. I own all my words, whether other people find them offensive or not. I'm sorry that you think that my pointing out that Frank Miller was engaging in whoreaphobia by making Selina any kind of sex worker at all was a reflection of my own beliefs. (Yes, I do realize you used the term "slut shaming". You used the wrong phrase.) As was every writer who left that part of Selina's origin in-canon and everyone who defended it.

Why? Because it automatically codes Selina as a villain. (Yes, I know Mia Dearden was a sex worker at one point. That was written in yet another way that reveals the whoreaphobia of the writer.) It's lazy writing. It's definitely a "show, don't tell" plot device that takes advantage of the fact that the average comics reader does not differentiate between kinds of sex workers (without having to point out that there isn't a moral or ethical difference between kinds of sex workers--dommes who have sex with their clients aren't "worse people" than those that don't) and makes the assumptions that I spelled out in my second comment. (That was kind of convoluted. Let me recap: Writing Selina as a sex worker of any sort is lazy writing because it trades on people's assumptions that sex workers are all nasty people because they are in the sex trade. It is a shortcut that relies on people's bigotry.)

Saying that there exist people who make judgements based on the fact that a character is (or was) a sex worker is not the same as engaging in slut-shaming. Using the word "hooker" to underline my point is not slut-shaming. It is illustrating my point. So is the fact that you objected to it, but I don't hold that against you. It is an incendiary word. So is the phrase "sex worker" but I suppose we have to call those men and women that perform in those varied occupations something.

Had I known that I was answering a mod's direct question, I wouldn't have bothered. There's very little "speaking truth to power" that is allowed to occur in this comm. The fact that salina has frozen the previous thread without the mods rendering judgement or otherwise commenting on it really smacks of salina using her mod authority because I dared to disagree with her. The fact that I used the word "hooker" (which I noticed you used as well) only provided the excuse.

And now I'm done with you. I shall go back to my previous policy of not commenting, so you won't have to be offended by my words.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

no subject

salinea
2011-12-30 09:11 pm UTC (link)

Had I known that I was answering a mod's direct question, I wouldn't have bothered. There's very little "speaking truth to power" that is allowed to occur in this comm. The fact that salina has frozen the previous thread without the mods rendering judgement or otherwise commenting on it really smacks of salina using her mod authority because I dared to disagree with her. The fact that I used the word "hooker" (which I noticed you used as well) only provided the excuse.

I froze the thread because it was threatening to descend into a nasty argument, which we would rather avoid on scans_daily. We have yet to render a judgement over the issue and unfreeze the thread because we mod this community by consensus, and getting a consensus between several mods at this time of the year when most people are a little bit busy is difficult to do quickly. All my apologies for the delay. The fact that you were answering me directly, or disagreeing with me, has absolutely nothing to do with us freezing and discussing it, I assure you.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

no subject

aeka
2011-12-30 09:31 pm UTC (link)

1. I acknowledged that your original comment wasn't offensive.

2. You told

wonderwomanhero that it was 'inappropriate for him/her to tell you to stop because you were being offensive.' I agree s/he was out of line here, but the point remains offensive remarks are not tolerated on the comm and you will get called out on them when they are made. That's how the comm works.

3. Your original comment to

salinea outright stated that your dislike for Selina's sex worker origin had to do with the fact that people view the profession as something 'nasty' and that her current depiction is doing nothing to dispel this 'nasty' image. By doing so you are first accepting the idea that sex work is a 'nasty' business, and you're further implying that Selina being a sexual character puts her further into the 'hooker' image which falls right into the slut-shaming mentality. When you make a comment like that, you're bound to enter a very dangerous territory.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

no subject

chipsnopotatoes
2011-12-31 01:50 am UTC (link)

Sara, we're on the same side of this debate.

I dislike the prostitute origin immensely as well. Recasting a strong woman confident in her sexuality as a hooker/whore/prostitute seems to be the default response of insecure men who feel the need to take them down a peg or two. History is littered with instances like this (if you haven't yet, read Cleopatra, A Life and you'll recognize the same tactics by Roman historians).

Unfortunately, when people express anger over this, it is (mis)interpreted as "slut shaming". Well, just to point out what real "slut shaming" looks like, here's a link to some of the classiest comments over at Bleeding Cool:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/48242-batjanuary-give-hoot-%5Bredacted%5D-mystery.html#post251503

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/front-page-comic-news/48242-batjanuary-give-hoot-%5Bredacted%5D-mystery-2.html#post251541

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

no subject

aeka
2011-12-31 03:01 am UTC (link)

Unfortunately, when people express anger over this, it is (mis)interpreted as "slut shaming".

The problem with this argument though is that there ARE people who *do* in fact call attention to the sex worker origin in ways that are just as equally misogynistic. For example, it's one thing to call attention to the fact that the media is downright fascinated with sensationalising sexual violence and abuse against women (and media portrayals of female sex workers in particular are far from positive), and another to imply that sex work in itself is degrading to a female character, and that a female character being sexual keeps her under the 'hooker' umbrella. Unfortunately both cases do fall into the slut-shaming mentality because in both cases the person is implying that a woman engaging in sexual activity is a degrading thing. In the case of female sex workers in particular, there's also this pervasive mentality that a woman who sells her body for sex makes her less of a person, which is just as harmful.

I don't disagree that Frank Miller's portrayal of Selina as a sex worker is misogynistic and problematic; I'm not fond of that origin myself for that reason. But implying that Selina being a sex worker in and of itself is degrading to her character, or that being a sexual character does nothing to 'shed off her hooker image' is just as equally misogynistic in concept, because it again caters to the idea that a woman engaging in sexual activity is a degrading and dirty thing.

I hope that makes better sense.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

no subject

chipsnopotatoes
2011-12-31 03:36 am UTC (link)

[i]and another to imply that sex work in itself is degrading to a female character[/i]

I'm just rereading her clarification above:

[i]Saying that there exist people who make judgements based on the fact that a character is (or was) a sex worker is not the same as engaging in slut-shaming[/i]

and I have to say that while we may not like it, that's the unfortunate reality. I actually have been collecting nasty comments culled from forums about Selina (I can forward on request). It seems that her detractors use that as the number one ammo for insulting her (some can get very creative, some are just the run of the mill variety). Strangely enough, I don't see anyone who likes that origin defending her or calling them out.

[i]and that a female character being sexual keeps her under the 'hooker' umbrella[/i]

That I don't agree with.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

no subject

aeka
2011-12-31 04:16 am UTC (link)

I don't disagree that sex worker phobia is a sad reality that's pervasive in society; that wasn't what made her original comment problematic. In her original comment she expressed her dislike of the origin on the basis that people view sex work as a degrading thing and that people would see Selina as a 'hooker.' What's more is that that she went on to say 'This series has done absolutely nothing to dispel that image and in fact only throws gasoline on the flames.' This ironically reiterates the negative attitude that sex work is degrading, and therein lies the problem.

(Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

(Read 86 comments) - (Post a new comment)
(Flat) (Top-level comments only)

Account name:	Log in with OpenID?
Password:	Forget your password?
	Remember me