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superfangirl1 ([personal profile] superfangirl1) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2011-12-28 18:25

Wonder Woman #4














Over on Paradise Island, Hera does indeed appear, resplendent in cape of peacock feathers. Knowing she has no chance against a goddess, the warrior queen bows down and asks for forgiveness. And Hera seems set to look with compassion on the weaker woman, so vulnerable to her husband's charms.

Diana finds Hippolyte, but she's in no fit state to accept an apology thanks to the departed Hera. She's been petrified, and her Amazon sisters are in equally dire straits, having been transformed into snakes.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2011-12-29 04:40 (UTC)(link)
The 'Diana protecting someone with a couple minor gods hanging out' is cool, but the book isn't respecting WW's history much.

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-29 04:59 (UTC)(link)
Hmm...I can't really argue that, but I feel like they're giving HUGE respect to Diana's character and the world that she inhabits, so I do think it balances out pretty damn favorably on this book's end.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2011-12-29 05:34 (UTC)(link)
Ehh... the Zeus thing, *and* getting rid of the Amazons? I'm not seeing much in the way of respect, more of the writer wanting to do their own Greek God thing with Wonder Woman and didn't want her history in the way, and decided clear-cutting is the way to go about that (rather than putting them out of the way/not involved in the story or what have you).

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-29 05:51 (UTC)(link)
Well, we know that the Amazons are going to be changed back, and Zeus and the writing of the Greek Gods in general...it's just written so well that I really think it betters the character.

As for the history--just because they're not mentioning it doesn't mean none of it exist. Events like, say, Diana encountering the Bana could still be in place. I'd rather see them focus on telling a good story than try to put in an infodump of her past adventures.
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)

[personal profile] golden_orange 2011-12-29 06:02 (UTC)(link)
Yeah, to be honest, if it's a choice between changing things to tell a good story with a good character now or adhering slavishly to 70-odd years of history and backstory, then that backstory can be pruned to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, I'd be utterly amazed if the point of this story arc wasn't Diana finding a way to restore Hippolyta and the other Amazons -- the whole thing has "redemption and acceptance of the past" story-arc written all over it.

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-29 06:06 (UTC)(link)
"Plus, I'd be utterly amazed if the point of this story arc wasn't Diana finding a way to restore Hippolyta and the other Amazons"

Especially when you consider that one of the recent solicits has her breaking into Hades' realm to try to get Hippolyta out.
q99: (Default)

[personal profile] q99 2011-12-29 06:58 (UTC)(link)
The part that gets me is they specifically bring up the old so that they can then retcon in the new.

It's a new universe, one can just say "this is the status quo" without mentioning the statue version at all if they aren't planning on using that origin.

That strikes me as more clumsy.
swatkat: knight - er, morgana - in shining underwear (Default)

[personal profile] swatkat 2011-12-29 07:24 (UTC)(link)
I wouldn't call it clumsy - it seems to me a deliberate attempt to contradict that origin. By bringing it up, they give a plausible, in-universe explanation of why Diana now has a new origin. I'm not happy with the origin change, but they did have it make sense within the story in a way that has a huge impact on the story, I'll give them that.
jeyl: (Default)

[personal profile] jeyl 2011-12-29 11:56 (UTC)(link)
Sure it may make sense, but the whole thing still comes off as if it's mocking the original origin story by bringing it up to begin with. And it's not even the best depiction of Diana's origin story because it leaves out so many important elements that, believe it or not, would bring the same conclusions that Diana would have come up with here.

Hippolyte didn't simply ask for a child out of the blue while lying on a beach. She was "supposed" to have a child. She was pregnant with Diana by the time of her real world death before she became an Amazon. During the time with the Amazons, she had a longing for something she didn't understand, and once she was told what that was, she was granted the chance to to bring her unborn daughter's soul to life. It wouldn't be the same if she got pregnant again because that would have created someone else entirely, so creating something for the soul to inhabit would make the most sense. And all of this was possible not simply by one god, but of dozens who blessed her!

Conclusion:
- Diana is the real daughter of Hippolyta, blood and soul.
- A man was involved in conception, but also in both Diana and Hippolyte's death.
- She was brought back by the gods after Hippolyta discovered what her sadness and longing were coming from.
- Upon Diana being brought to life, Diana was blessed with attributes by each of the Gods.
- The clay was simply a means of hosting an existing soul, not creating one.

What this comic tries to offer:
- Diana is the real daughter of Hippolyta, blood and soul.
- She was conceived out of her mother's lust for a man.
- Father is a god who goes around cheating on his wife with anything with a vagina and leaves them to their fate when his murderous wife will kill anyone he sleeps with him.

Now, how is this an improvement?
swatkat: wonder woman in the hiketeia (dcu: diana is always on top)

[personal profile] swatkat 2011-12-29 13:22 (UTC)(link)
To be very honest, I don't have much investment in Perez's origin about Diana being Hippolyta's unborn child (or the Perez run in general). I liked 'The Circle' better, which doesn't really contradict Perez as such but hinges more on Hippolyta's desire for a child, which is something that really resonated with me as a reader.

She was conceived out of her mother's lust for a man.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. (I do have issues with the origin, but coming to that in a minute.)

Father is a god who goes around cheating on his wife with anything with a vagina and leaves them to their fate when his murderous wife will kill anyone he sleeps with him.


Father is Zeus, and family members are the Olympians, which makes for excellent drama. Now, it may not be drama to all our taste, but it does have the ingredients of a great story.

My issue with the new origin is that it appears to undercut the queerness of Diana's origin, not because it has Zeus as a sperm-donor, but because it no longer emphasizes on Hippolyta's desire to have a child, which is was so strong that it fashioned the finest woman you'll ever see out of clay. Furthermore, it opens up the Wonder Woman mythos to Daddy Issues Drama which, in the hands of a lesser author, could lead to much horror. I do not see it as a 'mocking' of the old origin - just an attempt on the author's part to work with both and make in-universe sense of the retcon.
jeyl: (Default)

[personal profile] jeyl 2011-12-29 17:30 (UTC)(link)
"Father is Zeus, and family members are the Olympians, which makes for excellent drama. Now, it may not be drama to all our taste, but it does have the ingredients of a great story."

As I've stated before, all I know of Zeus is that he's this guy who has the powers to get women to sleep with him, and he outright abandons without even pondering on their well being. After all, his wife not only kills them, but their family, friends and even their farm animals. Zeus is not coming off as a character who makes Diana's new origins more interesting. As far as I'm concerned, the Olympians are probably just as much a**holes as he is.

If you're going to go on about what kind of a God Zeus was, skip it. If it's not in the comic, it's not worth bringing up. I shouldn't have to go research greek mythology or whatever Zues is from to have an appreciation for why he's now the father of DC's top female character. Because all I'm seeing here is that Wonder Woman doesn't work unless she has a father. PERIOD.
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[personal profile] swatkat 2011-12-29 17:56 (UTC)(link)
I... really have no intention about going on about what kind of god Zeus is, or what the new origin is bringing into the story - it should be self-evident. In my opinion, it is bringing in some interesting aspects to Diana's story, and therefore, I'm following the storyline despite my reservations about it. If you don't see it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
jeyl: (Default)

[personal profile] jeyl 2011-12-29 18:30 (UTC)(link)
"I... really have no intention about going on about what kind of god Zeus is, or what the new origin is bringing into the story - it should be self-evident."

Daddy issues.

"In my opinion, it is bringing in some interesting aspects to Diana's story"

Daddy issues.

"If you don't see it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree."

I've seen daddy issues before.

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[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-30 18:17 (UTC)(link)
"My issue with the new origin is that it appears to undercut the queerness of Diana's origin"

To be fair, though, isn't the idea that Diana was raised in a society of fiercely independent women who've lived in peace for centuries pretty "queer" in itself?
swatkat: knight - er, morgana - in shining underwear (Default)

[personal profile] swatkat 2011-12-30 19:46 (UTC)(link)
That is true, and I'm very relieved that Diana's current concern is still her mother and her sisters, and not her newly discovered daddy, as tends to happen in a lot of stories. And the Amazons have been pretty unambiguously made queer in this story (although the seeming 'man-hating' part makes me a little uncomfortable; we still need the Amazons' backstory, and I do not think being suspicious of male intruders is necessarily oh-so-terrible, but the repeated references to castration in the past few months - Flashpoint, Demon Knights, as well as this - make me uncomfortable and annoyed), with Diana herself being the target of some innuendos that should suggest the same.

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-30 20:43 (UTC)(link)
I think the threats of castration in Wonder Woman were just that--threats, meant to deter the men trying to get to their island, and they would be perfectly happy not to have to do that if that's enough.

Plus, speaking as a guy who's rather fond of keeping my equipment, I would say that's a pretty good threat for most guys to be compliant, perhaps even better than threats of death or other dismemberment.

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[personal profile] fifthie 2011-12-29 19:19 (UTC)(link)
The part that gets me is they specifically bring up the old so that they can then retcon in the new.

It's a new universe, one can just say "this is the status quo" without mentioning the statue version at all if they aren't planning on using that origin.

That strikes me as more clumsy.


Yeah there really is something spectacularly self-indulgent about retconning a status quo that literally has just been massively universe-wide retconned.
jeyl: (Default)

[personal profile] jeyl 2011-12-29 20:44 (UTC)(link)
I think the bigger issue here that I'm certainly worried about is that this "Daughter of Zeus" will spill out into the ORIGINAL Wonder Woman stories that have already long established her original "Clay, whatever" origin story, thus where the retcons come in. Let's face it, the sales of this new Wonder Woman are good, and DC will cling to ANYTHING in a good book and over develop the heck out of it. It's just stupid that it has to be the "Wonder Woman is now fixed now because she has a father!" change.

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2011-12-29 11:37 (UTC)(link)
the Amazons are more like the Amazons of myth than the Amazons of Wonder WOman to me.

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-29 15:44 (UTC)(link)
Eh--the tech stuff is pretty much completely gone and the archetecture is different, but they don't feel so different to, say, the Perez Amazons to me.

[personal profile] jlbarnett 2011-12-29 23:44 (UTC)(link)
the Perez Amazons all loved Diana and were like mothers to her. THese Amazons call her Clay. The Perez Amazons were peaceful first then fought. These Amazons found out someone was on their island and immediately attacked only later finding out it was DIana they were attacking.

They seem like the Bana to me.
xammax: (mop)

[personal profile] xammax 2011-12-29 06:00 (UTC)(link)
I think if they were going to do it, this rebooot was the time. End of the day we have a good story that respects her character and the way she acts, has her doing cool things which many runs on her title can't claim. I am buying this run because I think the tone has set it apart from other titles.
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[personal profile] jeyl 2011-12-29 12:01 (UTC)(link)
Respects her? How? The only thing that's respecting the original Wonder Woman is that she's a woman. That's it. Throughout the issues, she's never been nice to the girl she's trying to protect and always reacts to things she doesn't like with violence. Her compassion she had for everything, including those she strives to protect is completely absent here. Where is the respect?

[personal profile] darkknightjrk 2011-12-30 18:22 (UTC)(link)
"she's never been nice to the girl"

She's been direct at times and joking in others, but Diana decided to protect an innocent woman from a cruel god who wants her dead--I think that's definitely in Wonder Woman's character.

[personal profile] saralakali 2011-12-29 18:15 (UTC)(link)
And it's not good storytelling either. It's just rehashing old tropes--tropes that WW managed to avoid before. The old WW created tropes. This crap is hack writing at its hackiest.