The Decepticons are defeated. What's next?

[superboyprime]

Yep, it's happened again. It wouldn't be a proper Transformers series if Optimus doesn't bite it at least once. There's a new twist on it this time around, though.











Later, Optimus splits the Matrix in half and gives one half each to Bumblebee and Rodimus. Then he makes good on his promise and leaves.

Comments

[q99]

That's pretty cool.

The returner position was kinda jerkish, but not so much so that you don't understand where they're coming from, and they do approach with words and negotiation.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Judas!

Prime died for our sins! Several times! Anyone who questions him must burn, buuuurn!

[q99]

Hey, Prime was ultimately down with the call as well!

[jlbarnett]

I don't understand where they're coming from, but then I've never liked the IDW Transformers stories. They've created stuff like treaties and all involving the war without altering the Decepticons enough. The original 1984 Decepticons seemed like characters where if someone proposed a treaty they'd happily accept meeting for negotiations. And then kill everyone who showed up. The IDW Decepticons seem the same, with a few small exceptions maybe, yet they managed to negotiate these treaties.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

That's because the majority of the people causing trouble in this issues *aren't* Decepticons. They're 'bots who weren't part of the war effort and are trying to return to Cybertron.

[jlbarnett]

I get these guys aren't Decepticons. But the idea that not fighting was an option just doesn't work.

Considering what the Decepticons are I prefer stories where everyone was part of the war because introducing noncombatants just makes them look like jerks.

Fact is the only reason they'd have been able to leave is the Autobots because the Decepticons wouldn't have been willing to spare resources or let any non-Decepticons go.

[q99]

-
Fact is the only reason they'd have been able to leave is the Autobots because the Decepticons wouldn't have been willing to spare resources or let any non-Decepticons go.-

There is definitely that factor. That's why the refugees are still jerkish.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

They're especially jerkish when you realize that they did nothing when the Decepticons attacked other worlds and they still act like the war between the Decpticons and Autobots was just some pointless civil war.

[q99]

Quite. But the thing is, they were mostly well out of the way when that happened and have little experience of most of the stuff between the early days of the war and the late, baring presumably the occasional report, and were merely many small scattered groups spread all over at the time. I'm guessing they probably didn't know their own numbers or power.

[icon_uk]

But the idea that not fighting was an option just doesn't work.

Why? Two minority cults start a civil war which undermines the entire foundations of the planet in the process. Staying means you would need to ally with one of the cults, neither of whose goals you believe in particularly (or you might not be equipped to deal with depending on whether you're a Transformer with firepower), or get caught in the crossfire.

Leaving seems quite a plausible course of action, and there's nothing to say the Decepticons were in a position to stop them, since they were busy obsessing over the Autobots at the time.

Even when it IS safe to return home after a few million years, you're still pissed off at them for slagging your homeworld in the process.

[jlbarnett]

cause the Autobots didn't start the Civil War. The Autobots were the only thing stopping the Decepticons from slaughtering every non_Decepticon they saw.

[icon_uk]

IIRC the Decepticons were reacting to an oppressive and corrupt Autobot Imperium more into maintaining their comfortable status quo than listen to the working classes.

The Decepticons went too far no argument, but would they have done had they been treated fairly from the outset?

[jlbarnett]

again, whatever their motivation is I see no evidence these guys are different than the 1984 G1 Decepticons. What they would have done is totally obvious to me.

[icon_uk]

We have seen a significant difference in their backstory. G1 Megatron was a megalomaniac who believed he had a divine right to rule. IDW Megatron is a rebel against an unjust caste-dominated system where how you were built defined your entire life.

[jlbarnett]

you're talking motivation, I'm talking behavior and actions.

[icon_uk]

Behaviour and actions are very much dependent on motivation. If Megatron IS solely motivated by a desire for universal domination, nothing less will stop him. On the other hand, if he has, at the core of his Spark, a need for revenge/justice for past transgressions by the Autobots, he may well accept an outcome OTHER than being big boss of the universe.

[jlbarnett]

then why wage war like he did on so many other planets in the universe in ways that would exterminate all life on them. Megatron's problems with the corruption and all in the Senate was that he wasn't at the head of it

[kamino_neko]

No, the Decepticons were not slaughtering 'every non-Decepticon' - they were killers, but the killings were specifically targeted - they took the Autobots, they took the Senate - they took the oppressors, and those who profited from the oppression.

Killing indiscriminately would not have served Megatron's goals, NOR those of Ratbat, who had manipulated the creation of the 'Cons to further his own goals. (Then paid the price for it when Soundwave, who had been his man, decided he liked Megatron better.)

Four million years later, the Decepticons have lost what good was in them at the start, as Megatron's lofty ideals became twisted into tyranny (everybody will be equal when nobody is free), and bots like Drift left the cause as they see the faction shifting away from the ideals that drew them to it.

It was a conflict between the people who were oppressing (often violently so) most of Cybertron, and the people who were blowing the oppressors up. Any sane entity's stand on that would be 'screw them both'.

[jlbarnett]

that's what it was like at the end of 4 million years. But how many years had it been like that?

Destroy civilians in the early days you're limiting recruits and wasting firepower that could be used on those who could be a threat to them. Just because a Decpticon here and there has these ideals doesn't mean they were ever the ideals of entire faction, no matter what some of them might have wanted to think.

[kamino_neko]

that's what it was like at the end of 4 million years. But how many years had it been like that?

Probably about 3 million, it's easy to slip into brutality when you start out with violence...

The point is not, however, that the Decepticons were a faction worth supporting, it's that the Autobots were as bad. The Autobots had more than their share of murderous thugs, and, again, supported the systemic oppression of a significant portion of the species.

Even after the Decepticons had slipped away from their original goals, even though Optimus Prime (one of the few Cybertronians who truly believes 'Freedom is the right of all sentient beings') was the leader, the Autobots only got marginally better. The greatest abuses - the actions of Flame, for instance - were clamped down on, but they still harboured Prowl, whose 'anything that wins us the conflict is fair game' attitude is not significantly different than Megatron's attitude at the outset, and leads to death and destruction (of Autobots, of Neutrals, of humans and other organics whose paths they cross) even when tempered by Prime's beliefs, and Whirl, whose attitude toward his 'lessers' is exactly the same attitude that created Megatron in the first place. (In fact, he, himself, was one of the bots who actively abused Megs before he finally snapped.)

[devastron]

Has anyone posted any pages from issues 22 and 23? They definitely shed some light on Megatron's goals and Optimus's past.

[kamino_neko]

Don't think so...I keep meaning to, but never got around to it.

[q99]

Where the refugees are coming from is "We're gone for a million years, come back, and Cybertron's wrecked!", blaming the Autobots even though it isn't really their fault, but they weren't there to know everything that went down.

[kamino_neko]

They actually have rather a point on blaming the 'Bots - the 'Cons did the real wreckage (Thunderwing did the worst), but the war came about because the 'Bots (who were originally Senatorial guards and cops) passively aided and abetted - or even actively participated in - oppression of certain classes of bots.

Not all of them, of course - Orion Pax actually admired and spoke for Megatron, who started out trying to fight against the oppression of his kind, before the Senate, back before the latter went completely off his nut (it didn't do either of them any good) - but there was enough corruption in the Autobot forces and the Senate that Megatron was initially completely in the right - it was after the formation of the Decepticons and start of the war that he lost the moral high ground.

And even once the war had started and a lot of the corrupt Senators and Autobots had become Decepticons (Senator Ratbat, for instance), the Autobots had guys like Flame, who ended up imprisoned for war crimes. (This isn't new to IDW, Flame was created in the Marvel comics.) Or Whirl, who clearly still gets off on abusing the power given him. (His actions, and those of his friends in high places, were what prompted Orion to finally confront the Senate about the corruption and bigotry that had infested the system.) Or, even on a lesser note, bots like Prowl, who has a tendency to treat people as pawns (be they Autobot, human, Decepticon, Neutral, or whatever).

The Autobots are the good faction in the war, no doubt about that, but they're not without their bad apples, and they do own some complicity in the situation that ultimately led to the war.

[q99]

Quite. And all that looks even worse if you miss the middle bits.

[kamino_neko]

Metalhawk went with negotiation. It's not clear how many followers he had, but Zetca's faction was clearly large, and growing - big enough to cause a riot that almost claimed lives.

But, honestly, a lot of that falls on the 'Bots - they did everything wrong in the past few weeks.

Bumblebee's become a jerk since he was made leader, Prowl's always been one, Whirl proved himself the kind of bot who should never be trusted with anything resembling authority before the war, yet, here he's given some... The whole thing is a complete flustercluck on their part.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

To be fair, Whirl was placed n a team where it was very likely he'd be killed. So it's not like the Autobots didn't try to deal with him.

[thanekos]

Metalhawk and Dai Atlas, huh?

Well, IDW TF's certainly had enough vague extradimensional intelligences hijacking Cybertronian conflicts for their own ends.. and, of course, who can forget Overlord?

(I still want to know what happened to Black Shadow.. he's the only unaccounted for Phase Sixer so far. Death in the line of duty, I suppose.)

[damar148]

There's no way this is going to backfire horribly.

[shanejayell]

Well, yeah. *lol*

[avantre]

Somehow from the last scan I get the mental image of Orion riding into the sunset on a giant motorcycle, merrily laughing as he tosses his hat into the air. As the hat hits the road you can faintly hear his cry of "Later, sucker!" in the distance...

[shanejayell]

I sorta likes this, actually. Not the returners, so much, as having Optimus 'die' like this.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

What's Metal Hawk been in, because he sounds like a real douche ("We outnumber you, now hit the road!" "Your civil war, our planet"). I mean, when Optimus scowls "You ran." he musta been a real ass.

[kamino_neko]

This is only Metalhawk's second appearance in the IDW universe...the first was the first issue of the Drift mini (in a more toy-accurate design), where he and Sunstreaker were the only survivors when their (Autobot) unit was slaughtered by Deadbolt and his team (the Decepticon who would become Drift when he abandoned the 'Con cause). (It wasn't a 'Drift's so damn badass!' moment - the 'Cons outnumbered them about 2-1...and, interestingly enough, Deadbolt was disobeying orders when he initiated the massacre.)

[lbd_nytetrayn]

What's with Dogfight here? He talks about "serving some guy who says he's a Prime," when he was serving under Optimus on the Orbital Command Hub before...

Is this a case of IDW not paying attention to their own continuity?

[devastron]

Its not Dogfight, its a neutral named Zetca as indicated in the next panel.

[kamino_neko]

Zetca, BTW, is a formerly toy-only AND Japanese exclusive character. Part of a group of 3 redeco'd Godmaster/Powermaster engines. One wonders, then, what this version's alt-mode is.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Oh, okay... huh. I guess I missed the name before, and all those wings. :P

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Thanks to both of you, by the way. Makes a lot more sense now.

[lbd_nytetrayn]

Really? Wow, that's... really?

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

[sharky_chan]

Wow. A lot has happened, apparently, since I fell behind in IDW's 'verse...or is this a different world from Infiltration/Escalation/Devastation stuff?

[kamino_neko]

A lot has happened.

Like...a lot. This comes after the first 30 issues of the current ongoing (31's a flashforward to 15 million years after the end of the war), and also builds directly on All Hail Megatron and Infestation/Heart of Darkness, as well as having major secondary references to the Bumblebee, Ironhide and Drift minis, and the Spotlights on Hot Rod, and Cyclonus... (The events of Megatron: Origin also play in, but the key points are touched on in a flashback in the ongoing.) Last Stand of the Wreckers doesn't particularly play into this story, but it'd help understand some of the above comments about the Autobots hands not being particularly clean (especially Prowl's). There's also a lot of other stuff that's happened, but isn't terribly influential on this story, including at least one flashforward of 2 years (between the end of All Hail Megatron and the beginning of the new ongoing). Although, to be sure, that flashforward wasn't exactly eventful (although a bunch of Cybertronians on Earth were either killed or captured, mostly they just stayed in hiding and hoped their Energon didn't run out).