Scans_Daily

Ah. That makes sense.

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yeah sorry about that, i wanted to show the "talking to" the "Spoiler" and them finding cassie (cause and effect wise).

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jazzypom

Was a thief (or into something really dodgy), that caused Cassie's mum to leave him (and marry a policeman), he reformed, and became an Avenger. He didn't get on with Jack of Hearts at first, but they became close towards the end of Jack's life (when Jack pretty much decided to end it all, because of various circumstances). Scott Lang's ex wife (Cassie's mum) had custody of his kid, and Cassie would visit the mansion from time to time growing up.

Scott got killed when Jack of Hearts came back to the mansion and got blown up (I'm being vague because yeah).

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icon_uk

IIRC Scott was blackmailed into helping a bad guy commit crime in order to afford medical treatment that Cassie needed to survive.

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jazzypom

IIRC Scott was blackmailed into helping a bad guy commit crime in order to afford medical treatment that Cassie needed to survive.

Ahhh, point.

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auggie18

I like Billy's pointing out that Gambit was a member of the Thieves Guild instead, say, the Marauders, who actually murdered a freaking ton of people. Then again, I was he might not have known that about Gambit. Then again again, how did he know about the Thieves Guild?

Not seeing Cassie's death sticking.

This is going to have some long reaching consequences in Marvel, assuming something doesn't happen in the last issue to retcon the whole freaking thing.

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avantre

Haven't The Powers that Be at Marvel have been saying that The Children's Crusade, along with a couple of other storylines ending around the same time, were going to have a major impact on their universe's storyline? based on that I wouldn't look for a next-issue retcon on anything except maybe Cassie.

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stolisomancer

Billy has had time to sit around secret bases with nothing to do but read the Avengers' files, which they routinely share with the X-Men. The Thieves' Guild, as per Gambit's first ongoing, is really just a bunch of happy-go-lucky sneak thieves with powers in New Orleans.

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jazzypom

Wasn't that such a secret that only Sabertooth knew (and eventually told Rogue) for some time? I confess I haven't read X-men comics in a while, but that was told in the late 1980s, early 1990s.

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espanolbot

The Marauders don't count, on account of the Morlock's don't count. On account of they ugly.

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icon_uk

Not sure how well known Gambit's time as a Marauder would be known beyond X-Men files, as opposed to his frequently mentioned membership of the Thieves Guild.

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cainofdreaming

Well, Gambit wasn't really part of the team. He just helped Sinister assemble them, in exchange for his power reduction if I recall that right. The whole explanation was probably just too long to include.

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Gambit actively joined the Marauders during Messiah Complex a few years back, they killed a bunch of time travellers and precogs and basically anyone with knowledge of the future who knew what Hope Summers was meant to do.

He joined around the same time that a bunch of other X-men joined too, Sunfire, Mystique, Lady Mastermind, Omega Sentinel (though she was being possessed by Malice).

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lascoden

I think Doom was lying about being responsible. Someone on a CBR forum, I think, made a pretty good argument that he lied to help Wanda, plus he was in hell at the time. Also, there's one more issue, so I doubt Stature is really dead.

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salinea

Yeah, that's how I read it as well.

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dewinged

I think Doom's telling the truth. It's a bit of a retcon, but rescues Wanda's character, and hopefully allows M-Day to be undone.

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salinea

it's not what you'd call a satisfying reveal, what with the fact it makes absolutely no sense on any level.

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how does it not make sense? (IMHO NON of what Wanda did makes sense, this makes more sense than that)

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salinea

let's start with why?

(Little of what Wanda did made sense, either, yeah, also not quite as random).

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why does Doom do anything? for power. that's one good reason. Her powers are magically based. his are too. maybe he was able to gain acess to them while in hell? truth is we dont know yet, and i have faith that Heinberg will make sense of it all (honestly from the very begining he never liked the whole Scarlet Witch goes crazy angle so what ever he does to fix it, if it requires more suspension of disbelief, i am willing to suspend.)

also i didn't have a problem with being mentally unstable, after going through what she did (girl has been through hell... literally) but i never liked the way the story was handled. it was less "Wanda broke after suffering the traumatic loss of her children" and more "Ladies is crazy and wantz babeez!"

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salinea

Exactly how does Decimation give Doom more power?

I think Heinberg is too good a writer to try to fix bad storytelling with even worse storytelling.

Yes, I know. Still better than removing what was left of her agency in this case by putting it on Doom.

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i dont see what wanda did as having ANY agency what so ever.... she was not in control, the decisions she made were not her's she was manipulated by the magicks to begin with.

Not decimation, the attack on the Avengers is what Doom takes credit for.
even so, i remember Doom saying at one point that the increase in mutant population was an issue he might have to deal with (don't know exactly where as it was a one line thing that didn't get much attention)

that said, i don't think he was involved in the decimation. The Decimation was actually one of the only things during that whole Dissasssembled through House of M that was HER choice. it was a choice that was made out of frustration and anger during one moment of lucidity... but it was HER choice. Dissassembled she was manipulated by the magicks (which if it was Doom would make more sense since he is a very powerful magick user, and makes better sense than her not being able to control her own power... the way i look at it, he might have given her a magical ruffie that caused her to loose control of her magick in order to take the Avengers off the board) and During House of M Pietro was the one manipulating her.

Decimation was pretty much the ONLY choice that was hers and hers alone

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salinea

Ah, ok. That would make slightly more sense.

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valismedsen

Scans-Daily definitely needs a +1 or like button. I loved the way you put things, shadowpsykie! Agreed wholehearted!

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teehee thanks :)

on top of that. In this series she owns up to her "No more mutants decision" she is even willing to go into custody. Hell even willing to sacrifice her life. Heinberg has done more to give her agency than ANYONE has in a long time. that's why if Heingberg pulls a ParaDoom Fear Bug argument i will agree whole heartedly.

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da_reap

I see where you're coming from, I really do...

But really, this is still Voodoo Shark territory. "I manipulated Wanda into destroying the Avengers while I was frying in Hell for MY ridiculous botchery of mischaracterization! BWAH-haha!'

Snidely Whiplash got better plotting than that.

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valtyr

Exactly how does Decimation give Doom more power?

Among the depowered were Magneto, Quicksilver, Professor X, Rictor. All these are among the limited number of people who can challenge and endanger Doom. Doom may also have hoped to depower all mutants; Namor, Emma, Cyclops, Iceman - all powerful enough to be a danger to him.

I don't think it's at all out of character for Doom to try and destroy all challenges to his power, starting by tearing the Avengers apart (individually, they're not huge threats) and then trying to eliminate all mutants. Hell, in Children's Crusade, who went toe to toe with him? Magneto. And then he moves on to attacking Asgardians. You can put together quite a coherent narrative of Doom systematically attacking other powerbases in the MU starting with Disassembled, I think. He invited the Atlanteans to Latveria too, didn't he?

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is that... is that Iron doom? O_O

but yeah, its totally within his character to try and pull something like that.

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valtyr

It's from Marvel Adventures: Armour Wars, Doom lends Tony an old suit of his armour for reasons you'll have to read the comics to find out. :)

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and now its half naked Tony? CURSE YOU VALTYYYYYYR CURSE YOU! *shakes fists like Doom*

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valtyr

That's from MA Armour Wars too. But hey, I can stop with the half-naked Tony if you want.

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*twiddles thumbs sailor moon style*
Not that's fine... i like naked Tony.....

is that... naked Tony.... on a HORSE?

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ar_feiniel

re: Magneto

The third issue did make it a point of noting that Doom and Magneto have had a hostile past; Pietro even accused Magneto of trying to trick the Young Avengers into attacking Latveria so as to take out his "rival" Doom.

I remembered that seeming a little WTF to me at the time. But maybe it was Heiberg's way of "reminding" the audience that Magneto is a major threat to Doom.

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didn't/Doesn't Doom have ties to Nazi germany? which is one of the reason why i think Mags and Doom don't get along.... ?

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Considering that Doom comes from Gypsies, I don't think that's very likely.

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i could have sworn i read a story with DOom and Mags where Mags took out a former Nazi who worked for or with Doom...

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dewinged

Agreed, but no less nonsensical than Wanda's sudden breakdown in Avengers: Disassembled coupled with 'There is no Chaos Magic.' Two wrongs to make a right.

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salinea

I never read Disassembled but I'm willing to agree it made no sense either, but no, i don't believe two wrongs make a right. It would be just adding random mess to the previous mess.

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essentially, wanda went "crazy" because she lost her children. that could have been a good story, a great story if it wasn't don'e in such a shallow fashion

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arilou_skiff

Yeah, that's definitely what it feels like.

And totally in-character for Doom.

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bruinsfan

Well, the backstory is that Doom helped Wanda perform the ritual that supercharged her powers, so he obviously wasn't in Hell at that point.

I tend to think Wanda had the right of it in the issue - that Victor was just unbalanced by the combo of his newfound power and factory original megalomania, and was making untrue claims while not thinking clearly. I don't really think he was lying to spare Wanda trouble, this was more along the lines of a sour grapes "I was faking it too!" response to a breakup.

I did like that Wanda pointed out the power would burn Doom out and we saw plenty of evidence of it doing so, and quickly. For all his brilliance and study Doom's not supposed to one of the great natural talents of the mystical world; much more of his actual power is dependent on his armor, robots and other inventions. (Whereas Wanda was altered at birth to safely channel Chthon's power once it could possess her as its host body, so it makes sense she'd be at less risk from overloading than just about anyone else.)

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he's not as powerful, but he's a master of manipulation. He tricked the devil himself.

i look at it this way. he doesn't have the "power" but he does have the "fine motor skills" he could have manipulated Wanda subtly and let the magick to the rest.

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bruinsfan

Oh, one of my favorite things in this series was how he stripped Wiccan of his powers with little more than mesmerism. It's basically the John Constantine effect - you don't need to be as powerful as the people you fight if you can outsmart them.

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spacebetween

The fact that Billy calls them out on the number of reformed villians on X-Men and Avengers was sheer brillance.

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icon_uk

"Scott, you can't let him stay, he tried to KILL Magma and the rest of the team"

"Emma, If we turned away a every X-Men who'd tried to kill us because of mind control, we'd have no one left on the team"

Emma and Scott discuss post-Necrohsa Doug staying on Utopia.

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teehee....

yeah even some of the people who were mind controlled were killed by people who were mind controlled... they got better though *Looks at wolverine and Jean-Paul*

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spacebetween

I'm not meaning the brainwashed people. I'm meaning those that knew full well what they were doing like Magneto and Emma and then try to flip around when it suits them. Something Hawkeye seems to love doing of late. It annoys me, since Zemo was trying to reform in his other, corrupt yes, but a majority of people distrusted him. Yet when the likes of Emma or Magneto reform, it's almost clear sailing with only small hints of resistance from people or disappears quickly after they perform a heroic deed.

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well for Emma and Magneto its been a process. they didn't just flip a switch. Emma was incarcerated and then helped with the Phalanax Covenant, then helped run the school with Banshee (who kept a very close eye on her) (i honestly don't even remember who she killed... Magma's horse?)

Magneto.. i know he's killed some... but i don't know abot thousands...

also its not clear sailing... there are STILL people that don't trust Magneto or Emma. Kitty for one never let emma forget she didn't trust her. Storm works with Magneto but also does not completely trust him.

when they are written well they are complex people. when they are not written well they have Hawkeye moments "I KNEW we couldn't trust her! She;s a criminal! once a criminal always a criminal!" *hank- Eyebrow raise*

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spacebetween

I'm probably to use to the slop writing (Bendis) that affects Hawkeye for the last several years

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"Magneto.. i know he's killed some... but i don't know abot thousands..."

There was the end of Morrison's run, though I think he was mind-controlled as well (a special brand of Kick that had the consciousness of the sadist Johnny Sublime).

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that was Xorn and was retconned as not being actually Magneto but Xorn thinking he was/pretending to be Magneto... (While i Love Morrison, making Magneto an out and out Crazy and killing Jean the WAY he did urked me endlessly) point being it was not magneto... but not sure howmany people know that so Wiccan might not know that

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What he did with Magneto is a bit conflicting for me--on one hand, he does make for some interesting stories when he's somewhere around anti-hero or anti-villain; on the other hand, I really can't argue with Morrison's assessment that he isn't a "mad old terrorist twat."

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eh i don't know...i like the whole Martin Luther King Malcolm X parallels between Him and Xavier. I can accept that he killed, i can accept he used questionable means. I don't like that he made him out and out crazy terrorist.

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cypherfdp

Really, that mind-control panel could have been just one big shot of Wolverine and that would have made the point.

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cainofdreaming

Wiccan - "And some of you might still have brain control implants from your secret backgrounds. Like if I say badubbidubbidoo they go..."

Wolverine - "Quack! Quack! Quack!"

Scott - "Okay. Point. Someone stop him before he tries to fly off the cliff."

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teehee :D

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mambalev

The Avengers Annual that came out this week which continues Wondermans rampage from New Avengers annual.

Ends with a Wanda related moment.

Then you have Avengers X-Sanction where Cable is beating up the Avengers because of Hope.

Avengers vs X-men has Wanda and Hope on the front cover.

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what is the Wanda related moment? are there scans?

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It implies that Wonder Man has only been a construct made by Wanda ever since he came back from the dead, he doesn't believe he's a real person anymore.

And then he just disappears into thin air, as if he were never really there.

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bruinsfan

Cool! I'd previously considered that possibility since the manner in which he was brought back to "life" didn't really gibe with resurrections that involve returning people from the afterlife and such, and his characterization has been so off in recent years.

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except that Simon is pretty much an energy construct to begin with isn't he? unless he was a construct of Wanda's since the begining that gained a consciousness of its own....

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bruinsfan

Well, presumably his consciousness and any metaphysical aspects stuck around after his original transformation into solid ionic energy way back when.

But Wanda brought him back in a manner that was more than a little reminiscent of how she made her children out of thin air (and bits of Mephisto). I assume the real Simon Williams was long gone to whatever final reward was waiting for him.

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eh i think it's possible, but i hope it's not. i hope that if it is then its a left over construct that gained its own consciousness

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kirke_novak

I LOVE when heroes are called out on their bullshit, especially if they are allowed to get away with stuff that villains don't "because they are heroes" or even worse because they are hot. Go team Karofsky!!

So Cassie is all kinda maybe possibly (NOT) dead and all I can go is go aw over Teddy and Billy hugging. If that surprises you that means you don't know me at all.

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Go team Karofsky!!

have i told you lately that i loved you? :"D I really think Karofsky and Kurt would work better than Kurt and Blaine (yes Blaine is pretty but both are pretty ugh!) It doesn't help that Colfer and RIM actually kinda ship them too, i totally belive that that "Because you look like Yogi?" line was a wink... the Now i think of them as Yogi and BooBoo :D

but yeah. when i saw Billy and Teddy hugging i was like Awwwwe (still it hink i love the moment between Billy and Wanda better just cuz its a long time coming:)

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kirke_novak

Karofsky was suppose to be Kurt's BF but then Blaine came along and fangirls went crazy. Klaine happend. Kirke wept. So where are they all now when the ratings are hitting the rock bottom? HA! /triumph

BooBoo was gay. Just ask Harvey Birdman!

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booboo? really? heh... i kinda see it... what Does HBM have to do with it?

I think they can still work towards Kurtofsky, they haven't written him off the show....

i need to make an icon of Billy and Teddy....

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I thought Kurt's boyfriend was originally supposed to be Sam.

But then they gave the "gay football player" story line to Karofsky and made Blaine the boyfriend and Sam was left to do basically nothing for the duration of Season 2.

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kirke_novak

Originally Sam was suppose to be the closeted football player but then ~~Chordelia Underpants~~ Chord Overstreet gave a couple interviews where he came out slightly homophobic at best (making one wonder why did he want to play Sam in the first place) so they gave his storyline to Karofsky but then they changed their mind again and gave it to Blaine.

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i don;t think he was supposed to be closeted. the first episode lead me to believe that he was out but one of those people who is like "My sexuality does not define me).

i don;t remember him coming off as homophobic in any of the interviews i have seen...

either way, i want Kurtofsky back :D

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I always felt that Chord came off as more privileged than homophobic, but I can see how his interviews bothered people but I didn't think it was enough to make the writers change their story lines.

I didn't ever really feel like Karofsky could actually be the boyfriend. I think that would have sent a really mixed message. Though you know it is Glee, and they always send mixed messages (Kurt and Blaine having sex in the same episode that a drunk Blaine tried to force him the parking lot of a bar comes to mind).

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well i think Kurt and Karofsky could work now because Karofsky genuinely apologized heart feltedly (he could turn into Kurt's protector:) but he has to learn to love himself first.

also yeah, Chord came off privilaged.... the produces said it was because they liked his chemistry with Diana

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I don't think that an apology really changes the fact that Kurt genuinely felt scared for his own life and safety around Karofsky. Kurt was terrified by the way Karofsky looked him. A lot of their interaction before Kurt transferred was basically just sexual harassment.

Of course this being Glee they could have just ignored that any of that ever happened and get them together anyway, but I wouldn't exactly trust the writers not to make an even bigger mess.

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i see what you mean, but i also think that Kurt in a way understands why he acted that way, he doesn't condone it at all and yes it terrified him, but he also seemed pretty comfortable with him at the bar (more so than actually being in th bar too) the interaction was described by the producers as them being "Two old war buddies"

i also thought that "almost date rape" thing was kinda more scary than Karofsky's threats, and at least Blaine owned up to that.

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bruinsfan

Blaine got handsy while making out in a car, but I'd hardly characterize that as "almost date rape." Or if it is, most of the people in the country ought to be up on charges.

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it wasn;t just "handsy" he wanted to do it in the backseat of the car, even with Kurt Protesting... to the point that didn't Kurt have to slap him or push him off forcefully?

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kiev4am

I love that page of Cassie punching Doom. So badass. I really hope she's not dead. Also, Tommy calling out Scott on what 'justice' he had in mind for Wanda was another great speech; he was right on the money that justice really meant vengeance.

I'm kind of sad that X-Factor had so little to do in this issue, but I get that Heinberg had a hell of a lot to juggle. (Shame there's no scan of the one panel of RicStar in this issue - we don't get to see a lot of those guys in here!)

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yeah and he didn't go so far as to say "forgive and forget" he did however say that only do to Wanda what you have done to others and yourselves.

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angelophile

Hmm. Okay, curious - who has Emma murdered? And who are the thousands of people Magneto has killed? He sunk that Russian submarine, but I don't recall any mass killings otherwise. What am I missing?

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salinea

was wondering that as well? maybe silver age stuff?

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lascoden

Didn't he once fuck up the magnetic poles, back when Joseph was around? I suppose that killed quite a few. Plus I think everyone still thinks the whole Xorn thing was really him.

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angelophile

I thought he was stopped before he did any actual damage, when Joseph sacrificed himself. But now I'm not sure.

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valismedsen

I believe Emma murdered the previous, human White and Black Queens and Kings of the Hellfire Club in order for Sebastian Shawn to ascend alongisde her. Magneto supposedly killed all the residents of the Russian town where he lived with Magda and their daughter the first time his powers fully manifested. How public is this knowledge on both instances, and how would Billy know is anyone's guess.

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Billy is a fanboy, fanboys know stuff :D

hmmm so it was silverage stuff?

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salinea

Not all the residents of the town, the people in the crowd who stopped him from rescuing Anya only. I doubt it'd amount to thousands of people. Dozens, maybe.

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Emma telepathically killed Butter Rum, Firestar's horse back when she was grooming Firestar to be a Hellion. Killed a few other people too.

I'm never sure where Marvel stands on whether or not Magneto was Xorn. Frankly I've stopped trying to find it out.

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poor horsie...

on a totally unrealted... well sorta unrelated, Has Magma gone out with Mephisto yet? :P

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I know I've seen a solicit for that date in a future issue of New Mutants--I want to say it comes out either February or March.

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salinea

He wasn't.

He never was since they retconned that he was Xorn.

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angelophile

I know about the horse, but I've never seen her murder anyone. Just wondering if/where this came up.

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"I'm never sure where Marvel stands on whether or not Magneto was Xorn. Frankly I've stopped trying to find it out."

Since Morrison's run was better than the retcons, I go with Morrison. I believe Morrison gave him a reasonable out for that anyway.

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auggie18

Emma killed her sister (which was sorta justified.)

I honestly can't think of that many people she's actually killed on panel. Not for lack of trying. She tortured a lot of people, though. And she stole Storm's body and then ran off and messed around with Sebastian Shaw while in Storm's body, which is why I have a really hard time liking Emma.

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angelophile

Ah, I had forgotten about Adrienne.

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