sherkahn: Monarch from the Venture Brothers (The Monarch)
[personal profile] sherkahn posting in [community profile] scans_daily
I have to credit for this.

I've touched on the Batman spoilers today, but they start off with the revelations about Diana and her people. It's a new low for DCnU.
It's a doozy and may not sit well with most of you. Heck, the new S_D protocols may even be triggered.

Fair warning, SPOILERS AHOY.

Shouldn't we have a tag for "everything you thought you knew was wrong."?

From the article:

"Paradise Island, has always been portrayed as a preserve of women, with new generations emerging… in an non-specific fashion. Formed from clay, or girls lost at sea transported to the island. The new Wonder Woman does away with any such niceties. The women of Paradise Island now set off on the seas looking for other ships, for seamen… or rather, semen. They have sex with the sailors, and then kill them. The sex may have been consensual, but what happened after certainly issn’t. Later, those that have conceived children give birth, the female children staying, the male children… becoming hellish slaves of the infernal weaponry workshop."

"It’s a nightmarish vision made real by Brian Azzarello and Cliff Chiang, the harshness of the stories of the Gods now made flesh in a much less palatable way. And given light to the thought that somewhere, working at a lithe, forging a mighty sword, unaware of his lineage, is Wonder Woman’s brother…

I guess Donna is going to have a say about this other brother, and I am not too fond of this darker, seedy Paradise Island. It honestly sounds like a brothel/labor camp of the gods than an ideal community led by women, made of women, for the women.
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Date: 2012-03-22 12:46 am (UTC)
arise: (final fantasy ♥ D:)
From: [personal profile] arise
Wow, that's, uh...

really really evil D:

Date: 2012-03-22 12:54 am (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
Finally Wonder Woman dares to ask the question: What about the Menz?

Date: 2012-03-22 12:55 am (UTC)
stillanerd: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stillanerd
So, basically, Brain Azzrello decided to answer the already answered question of "how does Paradise Island have a population of all women and not eventually die out?" by creating a scenario that parodies the ultimate male sex fantasy and gives the Amazons the mating habits of black widow spiders. So much for them being an "enlightened" warrior-culture dedicate to peace, justice, and love.

Also, why would a race of women who have been granted immortality by the gods be worried about preventing their population from dwindling since, you know, they can't actually die of old age?

Date: 2012-03-22 02:58 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
The easiest answer to me is that the Amazons actually aren't immortal anymore.

Date: 2012-03-22 01:46 am (UTC)
mistygeek: (Stand)
From: [personal profile] mistygeek
I had been a DC fan for years, but quit with the new 52. I'd read the press and I had little hope. Not enough hope to spend anymore money without knowing. I've always been a Wondy fan, and hearing how well the comics were selling, I thought I might have to check it out. I've heard so many nice things.

But no, apparently not. I'll be putting my money into this growing hole. I'm going back to manga.

Date: 2012-03-22 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Whoah... This is like... I don't know... The worst "Not getting the point" I've ever seen. Thuis is epic. It should be held as an example of people "Not getting it" forever and for all time this is... Just ew. It completely lacks respect for everything Wonder Woman is and stands for. It's mean-spirit, misogynistic, and generally awful. It's a travesty.

Date: 2012-03-22 01:53 am (UTC)
ancarett: Penny says, What the hell? (BBT Penny WTH)
From: [personal profile] ancarett

So Diana's hidden brother and his mighty sword. WhatEVER could that be?


He's totally the Chosen One, isn't he? Cause you can't leave saving the world to women, obviously.

Date: 2012-03-22 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about.

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Date: 2012-03-22 01:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I've never been a real WW but damn, this still offends me. WTF?

Date: 2012-03-22 02:19 am (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
I can't even go on, but Azzarello has now taken ABSOLUTELY everything about Wonder Woman and changed it into some misogynistic crap.
You can't even call this book Wonder Woman anymore, because this character that everyone is calling "Wonder Woman" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with Diana.
Just, the history, the characterizations, the ideas. Everything has been changed, and it's just a COINCIDENCE that all the changes lead to a greater role of MEN in one of the few female-dominated books while ALSO portraying the women as irrational murderers! FUN!

Sorry Kate Kane, you aren't even worth this.

Date: 2012-03-22 02:23 am (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
Also, if anyone is going to say "This is what the myths were!"

Great, but here's the thing: Wonder Woman is NOT Greek Mythology. It is LOOSELY BASED on Greek mythology. There is NO REQUIREMENT to just take all of Greek myths and dump it into Wonder Woman.
AND I'M SURE it's just a HUGE COINCIDENCE that all of the Greek Myths that are being shoved into Wonder Woman JUST HAPPEN to be MAXIMIZING MEN and treating women like MONSTERS. It's just a complete accident I bet!

Basically, when it comes to Wondy, you're allowed to be selective of the mythology, and when the mythology that you DO SELECT makes the book sexist as hell? Then we have a problem.

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Date: 2012-03-22 02:21 am (UTC)
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)
From: [personal profile] golden_orange
... I'm torn.

On one hand, I fully get and agree what everyone's been saying; there's no way of getting around the fact that this is REALLY problematic. It comes off, essentially, as turning feminists into 'feminazis', with a bit of slightly twisted male sexual fantasy element for good measure. I mean, I didn't have a problem with making Wonder Woman the daughter of Zeus, but this doesn't sit well at all.

On the other... I kind of see where they're going with this. Okay, Paradise Island is an ideal community of and for women, but to be honest, in some ways that's never really sat that well with me either; I mean, I understand how important it is on a symbolic level, but thinking about it as a practical-minded reader I don't think that any community which is based on excluding an entire gender from participating in it is realistically going to exist without developing some pretty fucked up ideas and attitudes about the other gender as a consequence -- even (especially?) if, as in the case of the Amazons, they've usually had some pretty damn good reason for splitting themselves off from men and having their attitudes towards men coloured negatively. I also don't believe in utopias -- and frankly, suggesting that an all-female society would become a blissful and perfect utopia full of superior people is an idea that, feminist icon and symbol of female empowerment it may be, raises some ideas about gender superiority that I'm not entirely comfortable with either -- so I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of taking one and exposing that it's actually based on some pretty nasty things in the past. Plus, in terms of reader satisfaction, I've had no complaint about Azzerello and Chiang's run so far.

That said, I'm not sure turning the Amazons into... well, this is the way to go. I mean, if it was shown to be something that happened long ago, like it's a shameful hidden secret, it might sit easier, but the ship presented in the art suggests it's something that happens fairly recently.

Date: 2012-03-22 03:25 am (UTC)
philippos42: (doctor who)
From: [personal profile] philippos42
Oh, yeah, I agree with this post. Except for the approving stuff about Azzarello & Chiang, since I don't read the book and don't really like the "daughter of Zeus" motif in general.

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Date: 2012-03-22 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
hasn't sex you consent to when not fully aware of the situation you're consenting to, been decided to be rape now?

Date: 2012-03-22 09:14 am (UTC)
arysteia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arysteia
Is this a serious question?

If so, then pretty generally, the answer is no. There may be some specific statutes in specific jurisdictions, but at common law it's fairly consistent. The old case of seduction by promise/pretence of marriage (unfulfilled) is long gone. A prostitute who consents to sex for payment and then isn't paid has a case for fraud, not for rape. A nightclubber who has sex with a guy who looks like Brad Pitt thinking he is Brad Pitt has no case at all.

BUT. A woman who has sex with her partner's identical twin brother when he knows she thinks it's his brother and deliberately goes ahead does have a right to file rape charges. And in NZ just last week it was ruled that a woman who has unprotected sex with an HIV-positive person who deliberately conceals their status is a victim of sexual violation (certainly in a civil context, not yet addressed in a criminal context -- people have been convicted previously of willful endangerment, we are all now watching keenly).

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Date: 2012-03-22 02:29 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] blueprintstyles
hi, long time lurker first time poster. I plan on buying this issue tomorrow so hopefully the full context will put this in a better light. While this doesn't make me happy it does answer a inconsistency. They've been under attack from angry gods, and other mythological beings and creatures long before they went public. If they didn't get new amazons the population would dwindle. I guess in the reboot Diana's birth is special because she's the queen's first daughter and a child of the gods.

Date: 2012-03-22 10:50 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
it doesn't. This is the exact way the Amazons are presented and Diana is shown as being, well, either stupid or a fool for thinking there's some sort of reason there's no male Amazons besides her fellow Amazons are man hating monsters.

Date: 2012-03-22 03:02 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I can get what Azz is trying to do--make the Amazons flawed in a way that's similar to Man's World, so that her job is to not only show the world of man the way of peace, but show her sisters a better path.

I have to wonder if he maybe went a bit too far, though.

Date: 2012-03-22 04:48 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
'A bit'?

Date: 2012-03-22 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
This also makes me think of the Amazon in Demon Knights--maybe this stuff is why she was banished? Maybe she had a son and tried to stop her sisters from taking him, maybe she actually tried to stop them from killing the men they encountered.

Date: 2012-03-22 04:48 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yea, I doubt Ex was written with this in mind. She's not evil, after all.

Date: 2012-03-22 03:05 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl

Must be my birthday.

*clears throat*

I would like to thank everyone who supports this comic and hope that you will continue to do so with great pride and furious loyalty. I hope you defend every aspect of this new take on Wonder Woman and insist to every web forum that this is how Wonder Woman's universe should have been portrayed all along.

If there's one thing we so desperately need in this day and age where our own politics are labeling women as individuals who are incapable of making long term decisions for themselves, it's a female super hero story where every single female character but two are so wickedly evil that it makes the harsh selective Spartans of 300 look like the care bears.

And here I thought that nothing would top that god awful ending to Mass Effect 3, and we probably haven't even started yet. I knew I was right to drop this series after the new origin revelation and I hope this new take of Wonder Woman fades into nothingness. Wonder Woman doesn't need this anti-female crap.

Date: 2012-03-22 02:40 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I don't really think it's fair to call something that portrays Amazons as being a ruthless warrior society to be anti-female. The idea is to equate their sovereign superiority with the Spartans, eugenics included, except dominated by females instead of males. I've seen 300 rightfully called misogynistic, homophobic and jingoistic, but never anti-male despite its portrayal of the Spartans as being horrible bastards. So what makes this same treatment of the Amazons anti-female?

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Date: 2012-03-22 03:21 am (UTC)
philippos42: Miss Tyra funny face (what?)
From: [personal profile] philippos42
The poet Peter Porter had a scornful phrase: "horror stories from the ancient Greek." It came to mind here. It seems that DC, by handing Wonder Woman to Azzarello, is trying to crank up the horror and throw away the light fantasy that was for so long key to the trademark.

Date: 2012-03-22 06:08 am (UTC)
maxisanacorn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] maxisanacorn
The Amazons of antiquity did it's sort of technically keeping truthful.

Personally this is something that can be forgotten about.

Wonder Woman's history was so convoluted it's really no wonder they're starting from scratch. There are so many inticicities that you keep in mind, if you forget or reboot one aspect you're bound to trample on another part of her history.

Personally the idea that they aren't immortal and or do have to reproduce is not entirely a bad idea. Though it DOES take away the specialness of Diana being the only child EVER.

Wasn't Wonder Woman's creator actually a total bondage fetishist and basically used Wonder Woman as a channel for that fetish? The comic never had very pure origins.

Date: 2012-03-22 08:11 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
His interest in bondage is a matter of record, though he had a rather unusual view of it. This is a quote frum him;

"The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound... Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society... Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element"."

Certainly not saying I AGREE with it, but he channelled it for a, vaguely, positive reason from his POV

Date: 2012-03-22 09:00 am (UTC)
eyz: (Speedy)
From: [personal profile] eyz
Excuse me for the term, but Amazons now rape to produce offsprings???
Can't we get back to Perez's version of the Amazons now, thank you very much?....

Date: 2012-03-22 06:35 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Ed Robinson of Barnaked Ladies making a funny face behind Tyler Stewart (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
AFAIK the sex is consensual. It's the 'kill you and toss your corpse overboard' part that's not. Therefore it's mostly murder, not rape. Though they don't say what happens to unwilling men, but that's probably because the book is probably going with the stupid old 'all men want sex ALL THE TIME' idea.

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Date: 2012-03-22 09:33 am (UTC)
flo_nelja: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flo_nelja
I'm not in Wonder Woman fandom that much, but I'm in mythology fandom, and these are my thoughts about it.

- In Greek myth, the Amazons fought men, beat men, and had forced sex with them. They were rapists. But they were also warriors, fighting against men who knew what came to them, had weapons, and killed some Amazons too. In this comics, they are only backstabbing seductresses. Of course, it depends a little of scale of values, but for me, this comics is more sexist than Greek myth.

- Why do they kill the men? "It's the myth" doesn't work here, since in myth there are a lot of variants, sometimes they kill them, sometimes they free them for next year, and if the men was very badass sometimes they send male children to them (Theseus had a son by an Amazon this way).
Maybe it's about secrecy? I guess that attacking boats and killing men = less boats in the zone, but risk of having official investigation. Just sleeping with men = more boats in the zone and risk of investigation. If they don't want to be discovered, maybe the main goal of these attacks is to mark the zone as dangerous, and the children are just an added bonus? If it's the case, why not present it as such? If it's not the case, why do they kill the men?

- One of the main legends about the Greek amazons is that they cut one of their breasts to be better archers. It's "amazing" that it not went into comics.
They want to darken the Amazons, killing are OK, but mutilation, which is on the same scale, would make the characters less conventionally sexy. How horrific it would be. :-/

So, the excuse "but it's in Greek myth" doesn't work for me. At all.

Date: 2012-03-22 12:25 pm (UTC)
flash_fan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] flash_fan
This is excessively darker than it needs to be, but I really don't see this being an issue long term. I enjoy this run of Wonder Woman and these events don't really degrade her as a hero. It never says Wonder Woman did any of these things; her civilization did.

Date: 2012-03-22 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I'm surprised by the number of people okay with this.

But I just realized in superheroic terms that DC has made Diana the only superhero out of an island of supervillainesses. You think next time they tried that that Superman or GL or Aquaman wouldn't end up alerted to this and going to help the men on the ship?

Date: 2012-03-22 02:27 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
Makes me wonder if they made Krypton a planet full of General Zods and Superman the only hero, or if every single Wayne in DCU's history was a serial killer and Batman is the only hero... would people be okay with that?

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Date: 2012-03-22 02:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Hey, first time posting on scans daily.

So, why did anyone at DC think THIS was necessary? Do they think they are going to attract new readers by portraying a society of women as murderous child enslaving monsters? Or keep fans of Wonder Woman interested?

This tripe makes the "dark" age of the nineties look positively cheerful.

Yeah, I have a problem with portraying a one gender society as a perfect utopia, since it basically blames all of the world's ills on the other gender. But portraying a one gender society as evil isn't any better, since that comes with plenty of nasty implications too.

"Trying to be faithful to the myths" isn't a valid justification for this. I don't recall any myths starring Wonder Woman, or any myths that portray Hermes as a bird man or Poseidon as a fish.

The Golden Age Wonder Woman comics were more tasteful than this. And those were an excuse for the creator to express his bondage fantasies.

I do admit I am curious how growing up with this affects Wonder Woman's character development. But did any fan really have a burning desire to answer the question "Gee, how would Wonder Woman be different if she grew up in a murderously misandric society of child enslaving black widows?"

I honestly can't think of any plot compelling enough to justify this.

Date: 2012-03-22 03:24 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It is XS! She is running! (XS)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
This is so, so gross. I'm just going to buckle down and hope it all gets rebooted in a year or two.

Date: 2012-03-22 04:05 pm (UTC)
perletwo: don't tell Batman (diana bees my god)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
So, Themiscyra is now basically the Honey Island from the Nic Cage remake of The Wicker Man? ... okay!

Date: 2012-03-22 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Ugh, the last time bees and Amazons mixed we got Amazons Attack.

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Date: 2012-03-22 04:46 pm (UTC)
atom_punk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] atom_punk
OK, quick question from a cynic: How many people criticizing this issue, have actually read the issue in question? Just out of curiosity.

Having read the issue in its entirety and getting some context for the story I have an observation to make (spoilers ahead)

The Bleeding Cool description of the male Amazons being sent to "infernal weapon forges" is a bit misleading. Hephaestus, Smith of the Olympian gods, also suffered at the hands of his mother and so he takes in the male Amazons (trading divine weapons to the female amazons in return) and has them work in his forge.

The forge does not seem particularly hellish to me (save perhaps for the fact that it is underground beneath a jewelry store). The forge is...well a forge. There is molten metal, sure. There is industrial equipment, sure. But nothing that seems particularly hell-esque.

Wonder Woman, believing that these men, her brothers, are being kept against their will, tries to free them with Lennox's help and ties up Hephaestus with her lasso. But the "Manazons" simply ask her to release Hephaestus. They explain to her that they are grateful to Hephaestus for saving their lives as children and are happy working in the forge where they can create and be artists.

And indeed when two Manazons are killed when Hades sends a monster to attack the forge, Hephaestus' sadness appears genuine and he has the two deceased prepared for cremation in the forges they worked.

Does this make the retconned "seduce and kill" method of Amazon reproduction okay? To be honest, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth as well. But I am willing to accept it if the story it produces is worth it. And I cannot weigh in on that matter yet because this story has yet to be completed. Whether or not Wonder Woman will confront the female Amazons with this information has yet to be seen.

What I have seen, is that Wonder Woman is still kindhearted, compassionate, and willing to stand up for her beliefs. She expresses shock at the way the Amazons reproduce, tries to rescue her brother Amazons when she thinks they have been enslaved, and when they tell her that they see Hephaestus as a father, not a slavedriver, she acquiesces and frees Hephaestus who in return holds no ill-will to her.

Wonder Woman's character, her inherent goodness, seems to me at least to remain intact. And I for one am willing to keep following this story to see where it goes next. Whether or not this optimism is misplaced, time will tell.

Date: 2012-03-22 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Oh I totally agree that the male children got off lucky. Hephaestus being a relatively decent father figure doesn't make the Amazons trading away their sons for weapons any more sympathetic, but at least the kids aren't suffering too badly.

The story is good in that it reinforces Wonder Woman's moral compass. But does it really justify the whole "seduce and kill" backstory of the Amazons? YMMV.

What I'm curious about is whether this revelation will have any impact in future issues. Perhaps the point of this story is to show why Wonder Woman is hanging out in the outside world instead of Paradise Island -- maybe she isn't too eager to be anywhere near her fellow Amazons.

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Date: 2012-03-22 05:14 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
All that needed to be done to redeem this is removing the murder. There is nothing wrong with the Amazons seducing sailors if they just let them go free. It's not like anyone would believe them that they found a magical island full of beautiful women even if they told people once they got home.
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