(no subject)

[thespis]

Just a little Dinah/Diana sparring scene from Birds of Prey #68 that makes me happy. Because I need something to take my mind off the colossal awful that Azzarello is inflicting on Wondy.

Comments

[darkknightjrk]

I think he is using issues associated with Themyscira--he basically created an inverse of Greek/Roman society where, instead of having rampant misogyny, it's based on isolationism and misandry, and that could easily describe Themyscira all the way down to the Golden Age.

And I think it enhances Diana's story in one respect--before when it was portrayed more utopic, it made it feel like Diana wasn't all that special. She just came from the most absolute perfect upbringing. Now, it's especially clear that only Diana, who was always a little outside of her society and dared to venture into the Mortal World, could ever become Wonder Woman.

[thespis]

Well, that I disagree with - if anything, Azzarello's portrayal of Amazons merely reflects Greco-Roman misogyny by presenting a society that, at least thus far, appears to be universally violent, man-hating and barbaric. And with Diana (the demigod daughter of a white male deity who represents, among other things, masculine power) apparently the only member of that society to reject those practices... at the moment, at least to me, Azzarello's Amazons are reeking of straw feminism and ugly stereotype. When you've got a group of characters you feel is almost universally wonderful and they need to be brought down to earth, the answer is not to make them almost universally reprehensible.

But again, he's not building on existing canon to explore darker themes, he's totally recreating Amazon society.

Take, by contrast, another writer who explored a darker facet of Amazonian society by building on something we already knew: Gail Simone, in The Circle, took the well-known story of Diana's birth and asked the question, what if not everybody on Themyscira welcomed Hippolyta's daughter? What if, rather than seeing Diana as a miracle, some Amazons saw her as a monster; a clay-forged abomination created in some unnatural ritual, who threatened to tear their people apart? She created a group of characters fanatically loyal to their queen and determined to protect her at all costs, whose hatred of the child Diana was unfounded but entirely understandable.

The Circle enhances Diana's story by fleshing out Amazonian society: these women may be immortal, but they are human, with human fears and failings. And while they may have lived in relative peace for centuries, they are not a utopia, and isolation breeds its own set of issues. And we see that these women are individuals with their own ideas and agendas, their own beliefs about what is best for Themyscira.

I would love to see more of that - writers developing the factions and individuals within the society, exploring its politics, exploring the impact of Themyscira's strangely isolated existence, the drawbacks of immortality, the dangers of cultural stagnation, the existence of views and traditions that may not necessarily match up with Diana's values or our own. Azzarello's not done that; yes, he's exploring problems with the society, but it's a society he has totally recreated, erasing all of the Amazons' rich backstory.

[darkknightjrk]

I can see how the Amazons of old myths were meant to be misogynist ideas from the crusty old dudes writing things down at the time, but I was interpreting it as misandry in that the Amazons considered themselves the better gender because the presence of men was stripped away.

And honestly, while I thought Gail's run had some good moments, from what I've read, as soon as it got back to the island the book became boring as hell. To be fair, I haven't read The Circle (I believe I started reading the book during Rise of the Olympians, something like that), so maybe that part is good, but really the high-points of that run for me was the team-ups with Black Canary and Power Girl.

I will agree that there are some big differences between the two societies--the key one being the seeming lack of immortality, causing the need to keep the society alive and creating the awful siren behavior that fans aren't too pleased about in the first place. It might also explain why these Amazons are more man-hating--after several generations, their philosophies and their legends can be distorted pretty bad, and it's easier to hate a group if you don't have any experience or see a lot of them, if that makes any sense.

[thespis]

I haven't read much of Gail's run beyond The Circle so I can't comment on anything that happened afterwards, but certainly in that story arc the Amazons were handled very well and I really liked the fresh spin she put on the circumstances surrounding Diana's birth, fleshing out the Amazons in a very interesting and believable way.

And yes, it's conceivable that an Amazon society - perhaps one which followed a more warlike path, say in reaction to the persecution and betrayal inflicted on them by men - might grow insular and xenophobic, shunning the male gender. And as the generations progressed the hatred might simply become ingrained, informed more by oft-repeated legend and folklore as opposed to actual contact with men, and having been raised from birth to believe the worst of men they may have no problem committing acts of violence and abuse against them for their own ends.

Except, that society I've just described? It's not the Amazons of Themyscira. It's the Amazons of Bana-Mighdall.

Essentially, in Azzarello's universe, Diana has been raised by a fairly simplistic version of the Banas. That changes her origins in a very fundamental way.

Can you imagine the outcry if DC had inflicted the same treatment on Superman or Batman? If somebody just decided, I don't know, "Well, I like this whole parents-were-murdered-in-front-of-him angle, but this billionaire thing, it's not very relatable. What if we make Bruce a poor kid and stick him in the foster care system?" It might be an interesting story concept, but it changes the character's personal history drastically, to the point where he is no longer quite the same person.

As I said, I'm not one for hanging onto story elements just because they've been around for such a long time. In fact, many of the best stories come from writers who bring in fresh interpretations to characters and institutions. Look at what Greg Rucka did to the Olympian gods, for instance. But Diana's origin is a fundamental part of who she is. It's rich, multi-layered, and while it may not be perfect, it informs the character. And while it may make for an interesting story, to have a heroine who exists on the outer of her tribe, who must struggle to come to terms with what she is and the society she comes from... that's not a Wonder Woman story. That's a whole different comic.

[darkknightjrk]

See, that's the thing--while the ruthlessness and the generational aspect is new, the isolation and believing men cannot step foot in their society else they ruin paradise is inherent and core to the Amazons of Paradise Island.

Look at previous takes like the Justice League cartoon--Diana brings the League to help her save the island from Felix Faust, and what does she get? She gets banished for bringing the men that helped save her people.

Even if this take on them is a little more...extreme than previous takes, the "man-hating" thing is still core to the Amazons, at least until Diana ventures out to Man's World and shows them that they don't need to separate themselves from it anymore.