Date: 2012-04-18 04:23 pm (UTC)
salinea: Subaru is confused (*???*)
From: [personal profile] salinea
I actually got embarrassment squick from reading this.

Seriously, why is it so badly written?

Why is everyone so stupid?

Why?

Date: 2012-04-18 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Because Marvel wanted an excuse to have the Avengers and X-men throw down.

The Avengers' stance is stupid and based entirely on a bad first impression: Nova's report that the Phoenix had eaten a planet and was on its way to Earth.

Cyclops' stance is also stupid because he actually wants to invite an entity capable of wiping out entire worlds to Earth.

Really, both teams ought to ask Doctor Strange or the Fantastic Four -- heroes who deal with cosmic and mystical entities capable of destroying entire worlds on a regular basis -- what to do about this.

Date: 2012-04-18 04:34 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
The thing is, with the current overall direction of X-Men and Avengers I actually think this storyline could have be done in a believable and actually be good. I think Schism, while not perfect, showed you could make heroes fight one another for legitimate ideological issues and not rely on making them stupid for it. This is just painful to read, and not painful because I think it's absurd for heroes to fight one another.

Date: 2012-04-18 04:36 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
motto.

the x-men have almost always gone for poigniants (sp??) and gravitas. throw the avengers in and its alla bout flashes and bangs..... that sounded b etter in my head....

Date: 2012-04-18 04:41 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Definitely agree with this. To me, some of the dialogue seems about as well done as that of Star Wars Episode III, where Lucas apparently couldn't think of any other dialogue or any plausible way to say 'From my point of view the Jedi are evil!'. The dialogue's at that level. And the story's similarly trying to be complicated but just being executed in a completely bland and ugly way.

Date: 2012-04-18 04:50 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Thing is, if they wanted the X-men and the Avengers to throw down, they have a much better reason sitting off to the side. THE FUCKING SCARLET WITCH.


Seriously, the X-men's beef with her would've made for a way more convincing, much less contrived event story. They want to murder her, the Avengers want to protect her. There could be divisions within the X-men camp over whether to eliminate the Scarlet Witch or try to use her to re-mutant everyone. This could've been a much better event than "OH NOES TEH FEONIXS!" and actually given the issue the attention it deserves. (I mean, it got what, two issues of Children's Crusade?)

Date: 2012-04-18 05:19 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
The Avengers' stance is stupid and based entirely on a bad first impression: Nova's report that the Phoenix had eaten a planet and was on its way to Earth.


So the missing planet's Phoenix has destroyed on it's way to Earth... that's just a blip.

No, the Avenger's are justified in their assessment.

Date: 2012-04-18 05:34 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
What about all the stuff it's done before, however? The Phoenix has been consistently more rational when it's been attached to a host - most of the stories have established that thanks to the retcon that Jean during the DPS wasn't actually Jean. The Avengers seem intent on either killing or depriving the Phoenix of a host - both of which are suicidal given it's a cosmic force none of them are equipped to deal with, given they've just given an incredibly powerful member the finger and told her to get lost.

Do the Avengers decide to go kill Galactus every time he eats a planet? No.

Date: 2012-04-18 05:55 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Do the Avengers decide to go kill Galactus every time he eats a planet? No.

Galactus is a man... he can do shit like that... *rolls eyes* really that's the ONLY thing i can think of they are thinking....

but yes, Motto. the Phoenix without ahost is FAR more dangerous than a Phienix with a host....

Date: 2012-04-18 06:12 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
Galactus hasn't only threatened to eat Earth too often, and they don't have the power to kill Galactus.

Hope is an entirely different thing.

And you may be missing the point: Captain America want's her contained (from escaping) and off-world to draw the Phoenix elsewhere.
It's Wolverine who wants to kill her.

Date: 2012-04-18 06:45 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
Yeah, that one is on him, and the Shi'ar put him on trial for it.

Date: 2012-04-19 12:54 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And he was acquitted after he pointed out IIRC that humans/aliens trying to comprehend how and why Galactus does what he does is a bit like a lone amoeba attempting to intuit the meaning of tectonic plate movement.

Date: 2012-04-18 07:13 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
No, Galactus just eats planets consistently. He's rational, to some degree. In a way, that makes him worse than the Phoenix.

Again, giving the Phoenix to Hope would probably be the best method of making it a more rational creature again. I'd imagine it's far easier to contain the Phoenix in the form of a young woman than it is a giant firebird.

Date: 2012-04-18 07:53 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
1) Galactus eats planets, but as of the classic issue when we first met Galactus, Galactus has sworn never to eat the Earth. Harm a few people, on the other hand...

2) Giving Hope the Phoenix is absolutely the worst thing you can do. If you saw how Hope was in AvX #0 when she didn't have enough self-discipline to heed Cyclops instructions and self-restraint with the Serpent Society, imagine her with cosmic level power? She would answer to NO ONE, and the appetite for destruction the Phoenix brings out in people would overwhelm her. Hope never had the discipline of mind and strength of spirit Jean had.

Date: 2012-04-19 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
what appetite for destruction? THe Phoenix has an appetite for destruction. The people attached to it don't gain one

Date: 2012-04-19 12:56 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Again, giving the Phoenix to Hope would probably be the best method of making it a more rational creature again.

The Phoenix which had existed since, more or less, creation, NEVER went Dark Phoenix until it merged with Jean Grey.

I'd imagine it's far easier to contain the Phoenix in the form of a young woman than it is a giant firebird.

Why? It still has all the power of the Phoenix.

Date: 2012-04-19 09:31 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Ah ah - Retcon bullshit states that it wasn't even Jean as the Phoenix that went nutso and all Dark Phoenix-y, just the Phoenix itself, right? And to be fair, the Hellfire Club had a pretty fucking huge hand in driving the thing to that state. Not Jean.

And I don't know - I just get the feeling that small girl >>> giant flaming death bird of deathiness when it comes to the ability to contain something.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] icon_uk - Date: 2012-04-19 10:31 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2012-04-18 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] vitruvian23
Actually, they beat him to the point where he was going to perish at least once, and not only did they not kill him when it was within their power, they actually opted to save him. There was a trial of the main decision maker on that, Reed Richards, and he was acquitted basically on the basis that Galactus was a cosmic force necessary to the functioning and evolution of the universe. The Phoenix being that as well, the Galactus comparison is quite apt, actually. If Wolverine is right to try to kill Hope here, then the intergalactic court should have convicted and executed Reed. If Reed's acquittal was just, then no, it's not justified to kill her, or a good idea to directly attack the galactic firebird.

Taking her into space to meet the thing (as opposed to lead it on a wild flaming goose chase, which probably results in it destroying the Earth on its way) might be a good idea, but if that's the plan, you might actually say as much to the leader of the supposedly sovereign nation from which you're trying to extract her. Shoot, it's not like the X-Men don't have launch capability as well, or like their friend (or colleague at least) Agent Brand of SWORD wouldn't be involved in this situation as well. She'd probably be lobbying them to send Hope up to the Peak, at least, or take a ship into deep space to see what happens when firebird and Hope meet up.

Date: 2012-04-18 09:25 pm (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
But at that time Galactus was at that point starving to death, and Earth was his only respite.

Date: 2012-04-19 09:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] spacebetween
You have to admit they have a reason to be worried, the Phoenix is a powerful cosmic entity that for some reason gone on a bit of destructive mood before heading to Earth.

Even when Galactus comes Earth they are at a higher state of alert, because it is Galactus

Date: 2012-04-18 04:39 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I think my feelings were summarised nicely by Stan Lee when he was at a convention recetly. A kid in the audience asked him "Who'll win in X-Men/Avengers?"

He replied, slightly bemused "They're fighting? I didn't even know they weren't talking to each other!"

This is all just so contrived, and Marvel admit as much, that it's just... completely unengaging. My one bright point is that the New Mutants AREN'T featuring in the crossover, the lucky buggers.

Date: 2012-04-18 04:43 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Yeah, but ask Stan Lee anything about contemporary Marvel that he hasn't been briefed on or whatever and I imagine he'd be similarly bemused.

Not that it means you're wrong - this is probably the most out-of-nowhere, contrived and pointless event from Marvel in a long time. Civil War, lazy as it was, at least had some manner of setup and lead-ins. This is just ignoring dozens of older stories to generate conflict.

Date: 2012-04-19 01:13 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
there was a one page interview in a recent Time. He said Reed Richards was the most ethical guy out there.

Date: 2012-04-19 09:27 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
To be fair, I think if Stan knew or understood half of the things they were doing with his characters these days, or was interested in doing more than mugging on camera in the latest Marvel movie, he'd probably go apeshit over what they've done to some of them.

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