Avengers vs X-Men #2

[flint_marko]

Best scene of the issue; hope this means they'll be getting a divorce.

Wolverine and  Spider-Man break in to find Hope.


That's always your solution, isn't it Wolverine?

Comments

[sherkahn]

The Avengers' stance is stupid and based entirely on a bad first impression: Nova's report that the Phoenix had eaten a planet and was on its way to Earth.


So the missing planet's Phoenix has destroyed on it's way to Earth... that's just a blip.

No, the Avenger's are justified in their assessment.

[mrstatham]

What about all the stuff it's done before, however? The Phoenix has been consistently more rational when it's been attached to a host - most of the stories have established that thanks to the retcon that Jean during the DPS wasn't actually Jean. The Avengers seem intent on either killing or depriving the Phoenix of a host - both of which are suicidal given it's a cosmic force none of them are equipped to deal with, given they've just given an incredibly powerful member the finger and told her to get lost.

Do the Avengers decide to go kill Galactus every time he eats a planet? No.

[shadowpsykie]

Do the Avengers decide to go kill Galactus every time he eats a planet? No.

Galactus is a man... he can do shit like that... *rolls eyes* really that's the ONLY thing i can think of they are thinking....

but yes, Motto. the Phoenix without ahost is FAR more dangerous than a Phienix with a host....

[sherkahn]

Galactus hasn't only threatened to eat Earth too often, and they don't have the power to kill Galactus.

Hope is an entirely different thing.

And you may be missing the point: Captain America want's her contained (from escaping) and off-world to draw the Phoenix elsewhere.
It's Wolverine who wants to kill her.

[flint_marko]

Galactus was dying one time, and Reed saved his life.

[sherkahn]

Yeah, that one is on him, and the Shi'ar put him on trial for it.

[icon_uk]

And he was acquitted after he pointed out IIRC that humans/aliens trying to comprehend how and why Galactus does what he does is a bit like a lone amoeba attempting to intuit the meaning of tectonic plate movement.

[mrstatham]

No, Galactus just eats planets consistently. He's rational, to some degree. In a way, that makes him worse than the Phoenix.

Again, giving the Phoenix to Hope would probably be the best method of making it a more rational creature again. I'd imagine it's far easier to contain the Phoenix in the form of a young woman than it is a giant firebird.

[sherkahn]

1) Galactus eats planets, but as of the classic issue when we first met Galactus, Galactus has sworn never to eat the Earth. Harm a few people, on the other hand...

2) Giving Hope the Phoenix is absolutely the worst thing you can do. If you saw how Hope was in AvX #0 when she didn't have enough self-discipline to heed Cyclops instructions and self-restraint with the Serpent Society, imagine her with cosmic level power? She would answer to NO ONE, and the appetite for destruction the Phoenix brings out in people would overwhelm her. Hope never had the discipline of mind and strength of spirit Jean had.

[jlbarnett]

what appetite for destruction? THe Phoenix has an appetite for destruction. The people attached to it don't gain one

[icon_uk]

Again, giving the Phoenix to Hope would probably be the best method of making it a more rational creature again.

The Phoenix which had existed since, more or less, creation, NEVER went Dark Phoenix until it merged with Jean Grey.

I'd imagine it's far easier to contain the Phoenix in the form of a young woman than it is a giant firebird.

Why? It still has all the power of the Phoenix.

[mrstatham]

Ah ah - Retcon bullshit states that it wasn't even Jean as the Phoenix that went nutso and all Dark Phoenix-y, just the Phoenix itself, right? And to be fair, the Hellfire Club had a pretty fucking huge hand in driving the thing to that state. Not Jean.

And I don't know - I just get the feeling that small girl >>> giant flaming death bird of deathiness when it comes to the ability to contain something.

[icon_uk]

Not really, the retcon was still that the Phoenix had created a completely and entirely flawless duplicate of Jean to inhabit. In every respect it acted and thought as Jean would have done, up to and including suicide rather than risk destroying the people she loved.

The power was the Phoenix, the thoughts and motivations (even those that led to Dark Phoenix) were all derived from a perfect template of Jean (though affected by the Hellfire Clubs attempt at... for wont of a better term, increasing the nascent power hunger that was within her (as it is within all of us)

And the little girl would not BE a little girl, she'd be a little girl, with all the insecurity (that all humans have to some extent) the moral dodginess that Hope has (cf the mind control of the Lights), and all the power of a cosmic GOD.

[vitruvian23]

Actually, they beat him to the point where he was going to perish at least once, and not only did they not kill him when it was within their power, they actually opted to save him. There was a trial of the main decision maker on that, Reed Richards, and he was acquitted basically on the basis that Galactus was a cosmic force necessary to the functioning and evolution of the universe. The Phoenix being that as well, the Galactus comparison is quite apt, actually. If Wolverine is right to try to kill Hope here, then the intergalactic court should have convicted and executed Reed. If Reed's acquittal was just, then no, it's not justified to kill her, or a good idea to directly attack the galactic firebird.

Taking her into space to meet the thing (as opposed to lead it on a wild flaming goose chase, which probably results in it destroying the Earth on its way) might be a good idea, but if that's the plan, you might actually say as much to the leader of the supposedly sovereign nation from which you're trying to extract her. Shoot, it's not like the X-Men don't have launch capability as well, or like their friend (or colleague at least) Agent Brand of SWORD wouldn't be involved in this situation as well. She'd probably be lobbying them to send Hope up to the Peak, at least, or take a ship into deep space to see what happens when firebird and Hope meet up.

[sherkahn]

But at that time Galactus was at that point starving to death, and Earth was his only respite.

[flint_marko]

And why didn't they let him die, since it would save countless planets?

[spacebetween]

You have to admit they have a reason to be worried, the Phoenix is a powerful cosmic entity that for some reason gone on a bit of destructive mood before heading to Earth.

Even when Galactus comes Earth they are at a higher state of alert, because it is Galactus