Scans_Daily

Yeah. I guess Alfred's waffle-making skills were casualties of the reboot? Who knows?

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cypherfdp

Maybe it's just waffles specifically. Guy can cook up a mean gourmet dish, but his waffles are nasty.

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Maybe Steph can be reintroduced as the ultimate Bat family waffle maker!

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halloweenjack

I've known some kickass cooks who had that one dish that should have been simple for them but that they never really managed to do even decently. Just their personal culinary blind spot, I guess.

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star_of_airdrie

Alfred's bad waffles are now canon! (Like my mom's angel food cake - ick - everything else was superb!)

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icon_uk

Clearly a LOT of previous Tim/Jason encounters have been erased...

It's a sweet moment I grant you. (Though speaking ill of Alfred's cooking? NO ONE has EVER spoken ill of Alfred's cooking, and for good reason.)

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Haha! Out of all the things that have been changed/lost/erased from canon by the reboot, Tim and Jay's animosity is something I'm definitely not heartbroken to see go.

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me too!

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i;m okay with them hating on Alfred's Waffles. i love that no one has ever TOLD him though...

however... if they touch Alffie's Pancakes.... i will be PISSED :D

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sun_man

I hate this. The only thing Tim and Jason should be doing is beating the snot out of each other.

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auggie18

Aw. This is massively out of character. Cute, but massively out of character.

I'm conflicted on this.

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Or it's a new side of a character that we never got to see because Jason spent most of his time, around the Bats and Tim in particular, in a hysterical rage, before. That might be a more optimistic way to look at it?

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auggie18

The two sorta have issues, though. Deep ones. Tim was pretty much the replacement puppy for Jason, which leads to a lot of their issues. Most of Jason's issues with Daddy Bats that aren't linked to not murdering the Joker are directly linked to Tim replacing him. Maybe with time and a lot of Jason trying to make up for attempting to murder Tim they could become friends, but having that all off-screen makes this seem a little out of nowhere. (If Batman was a fresh start instead of just being compressed, it'd make more sense.)

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I just posted about this below, but how much of that is canon anymore? Johns's Teen Titans books aren't. There's no evidence that Tim's old Robin book is, and I'm pretty sure that Red Hood: The Lost Days isn't either (since Jason apparently spent that time learning to be a magical ninja now, instead of going straight into bomb making lessons). So is it fair to judge new canon based on older stories that aren't canon anymore?

The DCnU is a separate thing, to me, from "old canon." I loved those older stories as much as anyone -- and more than some people. But I'm also not going to immediately hate everything coming from the new books just because they're new and different. I think they've come up with some cool stuff since the reboot. This is one of those things.

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auggie18

Ignoring the Jason's attempt at murdering Tim, everything I said in the original post still stands. Jason should probably still not love the idea that Bruce immediately ran out and got a shiny new Robin right after Jason died. Granted, this should lead him to hate Bruce, not Tim, but I'm not seeing him having much in the way of good feelings for the kid who took his place. This are problems inherent in the premise of their relationship. Taking out Jason's attempted murders and beatings and you're still left with a kid who was abandoned his whole life being abandoned again for someone else.

Again, I'm okay with this development. I just wish it was, y'know, developed.

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biod

Yeah that sums it up for me.
As much as I want to see the full Bat-fam (including the ladies, you bastards!), we can't just jump to that point out of nowhere.

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This book seems to have a habit of jumping into things and explaining it later. We didn't even get the beginning of the main arc until issue 6. I think it's likely that we'll get more development on Jason's relationship with the family as the book continues.

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exactly. i have said this before and i will say it again.... Lobdell plays the "long grift" he sets things up, and then expands on them later... i am good with that

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icon_uk

Bruce immediately ran out and got a shiny new Robin right after Jason died.

Except that's not quite how it was, Bruce actively resisted anyone working with him after Jason died, including even Dick. Tom had to pretty much force him into making him Robin.

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darkknightjrk

I agree with you so much that I'm going to overlook that "Tom" bit. :P

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jcbaggee

You didn't hear about Tom? Robin 2.5? He...didn't work out.

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It's not how it was, but it was how Jason perceived it to be (and it didn't help that Talia actively encouraged him in this interpretation).

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Jason should probably still not love the idea that Bruce immediately ran out and got a shiny new Robin right after Jason died. Granted, this should lead him to hate Bruce, not Tim, but I'm not seeing him having much in the way of good feelings for the kid who took his place.

Jason was a smart, resilient kid as well as a very emotional one. I don't find it beyond belief that, after having a few years to deal with it, he could overlook some of his less rational feelings in order to spend ten minutes being civil to Tim.

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littlepunkryo

Again, I'm okay with this development. I just wish it was, y'know, developed.

I honestly think this is the biggest issue I have with him writing Jason. I like the Jason we have in his book now for the most part, but Lobdell does way too much "telling" and not enough "showing." And the frustrating thing is that a calmer, more rational, not-close-but-not-so-antagonistic-with-the-Batfam-Jason is pretty much the only place his character COULD go and that journey is KINDA important. And we saw very little of it at all. That was always gonna be a huge character growth arc for Jason and I'm really not pleased that we're not gonna get to SEE him go through, if that makes sense?

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benicio127

Aww so much THiS! Pretty much my thoughts exactly. But ngl, kinda loved this moment, along with the one from Robin that FabNic wrote.

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sun_man

It was pretty much exactly what I feared. Extremely OOC, complete disregard of their previous relationship, killing attempts are just shrugged off and everything we get is pretty much a “Sorry, that I tried to kill you, bro.” over a shared breakfast.

Which in itself reads a lot like a bad fanfiction. Eating waffles together on a veranda? Really? Really?

“Hey, I tried to kill you and you actually hate what I represent, but I am cool with that. Lets be bros.”

“Oh, okay fine. I am sorry too that I tried to kill you, lets eat waffles.”

(I wish I would be joking but that is pretty much how it goes)

I was also extremely baffled by how their relationship was explained. Apparently, Tim assigned Jason to get him information about Cassie. But why he did that is not explained.

How did this happen? What made Tim consider asking Jason? How did he find Jason? Why did Jason agree to do this for him? Because he got information in return? But why did Tim not sort out any other of his actual allies first? Namely Barbara, whose past as Oracle is still intact in the reboot and who was the primary information broker of the Superhero community? Surely she could have helped him with his request? Why Jason?

I really couldn’t wrap my mind around that.

And no, I don’t hate the ship. On the contrary, they could have a really interesting dynamic and I do like the general idea of them getting over themselves and trying to be brothers. But the execution in RHatO #8 was just so poor. So blatantly OOC and illogical.

I will be in my corner, crying.

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Maybe I'm happy about my headcanon being put on page and I'm not thinking it through. I'm willing to allow for that. But isn't it more likely than "shrugging off" killing attempts that those issues (and the Teen Titans issue where Jason shows up in the canary yellow tights) never happened in the DCnU? So there would be no need to shrug them off, because they just didn't exist? Johns's run on Teen Titans obviously never happened in the new canon, just judging from what we've seen on the page and even ignoring what we've heard in interviews and stuff. I've seen no evidence that Tim's old Robin book is canon either. So if none of that is canon, then it can't be taken into account and removes a lot of the problems you listed. Doesn't it?

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i agree.

i for one LOVE this new take on these characters. Tim is a bit more pragmatic, Jason has dealt with his rage issues. they are still tim and jason, and as such still have thier quirks and foibles... but they have grown. so what every Jason HAS done, Tim took a pragmatic look to it.

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eyz

Canon by Retcon :P

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mrstatham

Who says Barbara's past as Oracle is intact? Where's the evidence of that? Given the current state of the character, I see no evidence that the Barbara currently in Batgirl could have nearly the chops to be Oracle.

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Seconded. I don't believe there's even been a mention of Oracle in ANY Bat book, not just Babs'.

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mrstatham

I don't think it helps that the DCnU's continuity and included-events from the old universe is so clusterfucky that figuring it out would make Stephen Hawking's head spin, but I don't think even Simone is too clear on what she can include.

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milleniumrex

What we've seen so far:

- Barbara was in a wheelchair for three years.

- Dinah knew Barbara during that time, they worked together in some capacity, and their relationship is mostly intact.

They probably want to keep things vague, but given that, it makes sense that Barbara was active in some sort of Oracle-like capacity.

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mrstatham

We've seen no proof of Oracle, and there's been no mention of her. Given the JLA have been around five years, and the idea that the Bat-Family continuity is intact is blatant bullshit and lies, I see no reason for them to keep it around. Barbara would surely have some leftovers from her time as Oracle, and not be hunting people down through Google at times.

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milleniumrex

I have a feeling they're going to basically bust it down to "Oracle Jr.", for all practical purposes. Instead of running a global network that all superheroes worked with, she helped the Bat-family out from behind her home computer. Meh.

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jcbaggee

"Barbara, send me an address where they sell this very specific toxin. ....is that a Let Me Google That For You link? DAMMIT BARBARA. STOP DOING THAT."

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jlbarnett

it has to be. Batman Incorporated is still around and it's used her skills as Oracle.

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mrstatham

Morrison's already stated that some bits of Batman Inc will be invalidated in the light of the relaunch, but they are going to be ignored and just not mentioned since the tone of this second series will be different. That's why Snyder himself said there's no plans for Cass and Steph, even though they featured in the first half and logically should feature in the second. So.. No Oracle either, from the look of things.

From:

eyz

Called it, several months ago!

The Reds can be bros now!

From:

filthysize

Kinda knew something like this was coming since Lobdell's on both title. I get that this is OOC, but clearly Lobdell's take on Jason is far less hostile than Winick's, so I guess there is some relaunch-shifting going on here and that this Jason was just estranged from the Bat-family since coming back, rather than blatantly antagonistic.

Eh, I'll allow it.

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junkurosu

This is so out of character for both of them. Even with the reboot this feels so much like a bad fanfic where the writer hasn't read anything where the two character meet up.

How the heck did this relationship start? I mean even if major changes were made, it just seems so OOC. This is just horrible writing. It has it's good moments, but damn.

I mean why the heck just create some original characters instead of stripping away the essential traits and relationship dynamics that made characters the characters.

I'll be in my angry dome.

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for me. all the things to get wiped out in the reboot im glad this was part of it. I love the new jason, he took the hints that other creators have used and made them more prevelant... they are still snarky to eachother. but they are family... they don't get along, but that does not mean they don't care. Jason always cared, which is why he was always so angry.

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junkurosu

I'm glad for a lighter Jason too, but I feel like he's been really flat for me.

While I'm okay with Jason and anyone having a better relationship (heck, I write a ton of bat-family drabbles and fixit fics). I would have loved seeing Jason and a hesitant Tim come up with manipulative crimefighting plans. Which results in some gains to a better relationship.

I just feel like this is too much of huge leap. Like we're seeing the destination and not the journey.

Pretty much: this writing makes me angry.

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I would have loved seeing Jason and a hesitant Tim come up with manipulative crimefighting plans. Which results in some gains to a better relationship.

hmm i could totally see that....

well... look at it this way.... they still have history.... Jason admited to "not being nice" to Tim... but they are working together now. we don't know how or why? though a supicion for me is that tim a) can probably see why Jason acted the way he did after unexpectadly coming back from the dead. b) jason getting his shit together c) also tim probably values Jason's underworld connections...

in other words,i am okay with not knowing everything yet... this scene showed me enough. Jason is on better footing with Tim than the others. Tim is more pragmatic. Jason has dealt with alot of his anger issues. Jason is still Jason, Tim is still Tim (and will one day fall inlove with conner after having his sexual awakening with Bunker ;D

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junkurosu

I just can't buy into the concept because of how Lobdell presents it. It looks like bad fanfic writing and ooc. It is weird because I'm okay with Teen Titans (I haven't read Superboy).

We'll just have to disagree on that and agree on Tim having relations with Bunker (though I'm leery with Conner. I'm always prefer Steph and Tim together but with Steph missing I will support Tim and Bunker because Bunker is love <3).

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blunderbuss

Sorry if this is a late reply, but would you mind linking me to your Bat!fics? I've just been looking for some good Batfamily stories. :3

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This. Could not have said it better myself.

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.... i'll be.... over here.... BRO!!!! *sniffle.....*

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I, for one, am pretty glad that Johns story with Jay attacking Tim at the Tower isn't canon, anymore.

And honestly? I've seen so much fan fic start like this. ;)

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mrstatham

This. The Johns story was just unnecessarily ugly. I mean, granted, Tim takes Jase's role as Robin, that might irk him a little bit, but would he really go out of his way to try and antagonise and kill someone? It's a little too close to the way he got taken out, really - which is maybe the point - but I always thought his anger was better directed at Bruce and him alone.

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icon_uk

Agreed, never a fan of John's Titans, but I'm particularly glad THAT is gone.

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TBH, I'm glad the whole run is gone. XD

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ruhig_knight

TBH I'm glad all of TT v3 is gone (Johns, McKeever, Henderson, even some of Krul's) and its cousin TTv2. Ugh the ranting I could do on those...

Still miss NTT though

From:

espanolbot

Now, if this was the hypercompetant Tim we had from just before the reboot, he'd had drugged the pancakes so he could pack Jason back off to Arkham or Blackgate or where ever, like he did with Lady Shiva. 'Cause, you know, mass murderer and all. And he doesn't have the excuse of drugs like Cass did.

Evidently the severe beating that Jason gave Tim for "replacing" him over in Teen Titans and the outright attempt at MURDERING him via stabbing him in the chest with a batarang in Battle of the Cowl aren't canon anymore...

Not really the worst or least confusing of the mysterious erasures from Bat Continuity, despite the Editorial saying that it would remain intact like the Green Lantern comics.

At least it isn't just flat out confusing, like the butchering of the Black Mirror in the new Batgirl comics, or flat out insulting, like the removal of Steph and/or Cass' Batgirl tenures, who, by the way, have gone from "We have plans!" to "We have no plans for them, but we'd like to use them, but if we were it'd have to be in a big way and people above the creative process say they're off limits!".

At least that's what the mess of opinions of what the heck is going on with those two when questions were asked at Emerald City Con and C2E2.

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I never saw the Batarang thing in BftC as being a murder attempt, despite how valiantly Tony Daniel was apparently trying to discredit Jason as a character. I seem to recall Tim beating the crap out of him with a crowbar (of all things) around that moment. It was hardly the finest moment for either of them.

Are Cass and Steph not supposed to show back up in Batman Inc anymore?

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can... we all just pretend BFtC never happened... that was utter and complete shit...

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espanolbot

They were originally going to be appearing in it, but when Scott Snyder was asked about them at the convention last week, he basically said that they'd like to use them, but if they were going to use them, it would have been to be in a big way.

If I guess they could be appearing in Batman Inc in a cameo kind of way, a la Cass in that scene where she hijacked a Triad helicopter midflight, but in terms of appearing in the manner that Ms. Cain did in, say, Gates of Gotham... Yeah, probably not gonna happen for the forseeable future.

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And he doesn't have the excuse of drugs like Cass did.

Well, maybe they can hastily back-pedal and write one in for him just like they did for her.

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moetushie

I ... I'm glad Jason is in a better place, re: Tim and their relationship seems cute and all, but I have to say, I'm pretty bored with reboot!Jason's personality. He seems to have lost a lot of his (admittedly cracked-out) sense of humor, which, personally made him such an interesting character for me.

And up-thread, there's something about Red Hood: Lost Days not being canon anymore? Say it ain't so! Jason hasn't been so well-drawn since!

~~Okay, I have a thing for Lost Days!Jason.~~

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RE: Lost Days, that is an assumption on my part. I don't know it to be a fact. But I don't see how it can stand in current continuity with the way the timeline is laid out. I guess it might be in some sense, but the timing seems weird and rushed to me?

I loved that book too. I liked Winick's Jason period. But I do enjoy him being less homicidal, less psychopathic, and more...the way I think of him being before he died? Willing to do what he felt was necessary, not understanding Batman's self-imposed limits, but not sneaking into Titans Tower in the middle of the night, wearing yellow tights, and beating up 15-year-old kids either. >>;;;

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moetushie

Oh, I see. Well, the whole new timeline is weird and rushed. I hope Lost Days is kept in, it's a surprisingly character-driven work. I like that Jason isn't running on rage and his (understandable!) issues anymore.

I like the idea of Jason relining with who he used to be. I really hate the way his character was so poorly handled, post-resurrection, and reconning him into such a little asshole, before his death. It feels very mean-spirited, honestly.

And those yellow tights were a crime in and of itself. (But yes, also everything else.)

But those yellow tights.

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I like the idea of Jason relining with who he used to be. I really hate the way his character was so poorly handled, post-resurrection, and reconning him into such a little asshole, before his death. It feels very mean-spirited, honestly.

Yes. It did feel very mean spirited to first kill the kid off, and then retroactively strip him of all the things that made him noble and brave and Robin.

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moetushie

And neatly strips Bruce from any culpability he might have had, re: Jason's death.

It's not Bruce's fault that Jason was violent and rash and got himself murdered! The kid didn't listen! ~~Like every sidekick ever.~~

Except, of course, the Joker didn't murder Jason because of his personality flaws, the Joker murdered Jason because he's the Joker and he wanted to hurt Batman.

... I just have a lot of Jason feels. >__>

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... I just have a lot of Jason feels. >__>

That makes perfect sense to me! Benicio127 and I wrote a whole essay about those feels.

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moetushie

I've read that essay! It was one of the first things I read after getting interested in Jason, actually.

It's really emotionally taxing to care about the fate of Jason Todd, man.

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It's really emotionally taxing to care about the fate of Jason Todd, man.

I know. :( In fact, I think my caring-about-Jason-Todd circuitry is close to burnt out, possibly because I've been horribly over emotionally invested in him since before he even came back.

That may be why I'm so willing to overlook the angry destructive shit he's done. You know, since most of the time the way he was written about post-death made me feel homicidally angry *myself*.

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benicio127

YEP :D

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junkurosu

I would be sad if the get rid of the Red Hood: Lost Days because that cemented my love for Jason. I know people like the whole mystic All-Caste deal, but if they get rid of Lost Days (he was drawn so well) just for that I will be sad. I just hope there's a way to make both happen.

And I miss his humor so much.

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janegray

I love this SO MUCH.

And I don't think it's OOC either. I mean, this is superhero comics we are talking about. Superheroes forgive terrible shit all the time, it's a classical trait of the genre. Whenever a villain even so much as hints at wanting to pull a Heel Face Turn, the hero will almost invariably give them a chance, no matter how many times the villain has tried to murder the hero and the hero's loved ones. Hell, no matter if the villain has tried to destroy the Universe!

And in this case in particular, the villain is the hero's brother to boot (plus, Alfred probably encouraged Tim to try and get the black sheep back). Why is it so hard to believe that, when Jason showed signs of regret for his past actions and a desire to be better, Tim decided to forgive him and be nice to him?

Thank you for posting this scene,

aubreys_master. I was having a rough day and this heartwarming reconciliation really cheered me up :)

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I totally agree with you concerning how forgiving superheroes can be! I mean, this is absolutely no weirder than Bruce forgiving Hal Jordan for the whole Parallax thing. The only difference is that this happened off screen. And as I mentioned up thread, we'll probably see more of this later. Lobdell seems to like employing in media res narration. I think that if we get a long enough story from him, we'll get the expanded, developed narrative that so many people seem to think is lacking.

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I don't find this all that hard to believe - I just wish we'd had more of a gradual build-up, and a better writer. It's still cute, though.

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benicio127

The only thing I find hard to believe is Alfred could cook something that doesn't taste amazing. Honestly, Lobdell, this IS Alfred we're talking about!!!!!!!

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Like someone else pointed out, there's tons of amazing cooks that have that one dish that should be easy but they just can't do. It's possible waffles are Alfred's kryptonite. XD

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He's English; we don't make waffles here! Well I guess some of us do, but I have never seen or experienced this. Sometimes I *buy* waffles, pre-made, in these little plastic packets, and then I stick them in the toaster like poptarts. They burn really easily.

Ignorance abut waffles is yet another one of our cultural failings.

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benicio127

Lololololol!!! OK, I suppose I can buy it on a cultural basis... ;)

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littlepunkryo

Yeah I find myself not minding this much. I think it could have been WRITTEN better, but I am not complaining that a huge chunk of what was in my opinion awful drivel is apparently not canon anymore. (In fact I wish the reboot had done more of this, cleaning up the questionable/stupid stuff instead of leaving it and erasing a lot of good things).

I've always thought that Jason would have been really hurt and angry over Tim "replacing" him but imo they took it way off the rails and ruined what could have been a potentially interesting chance for character growth for Jason. It's weird because this is almost like a scene I would have expected after the low-key, more character-driven, less-over-the-top-I'm-gonna-bathe-in-your-blood confrontation I was hoping for originally. Now it's easy for me to pretend it actually happened that way.

Also, given Lobdell's penchant for writing a Jason who has apparently "dealt with" most of his issues re: the Batfam, it's not OOC for HIS Jason. His Jason has let go of a lot of shit the old one was holding onto (for good or bad, I think it's a personal preference because I understand why people are frustrated and consider him OOC). So him letting go of his issues with Tim is not really surprising.

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kenwyn89

This. Normally I'm not a Tim fan, but I quite liked him here. It's kind of nice seeing the Robins having a rational conversation, especially as Tim's now had to move on to his own persona etc.

From:

the_spoiler

What I liked: Well, just like everyone else has said, it's a sweet moment, even if weirdly out of character (I wouldn't know. I'm no expert).
Also, Tim's eyelashes on that first page there.
Didn't like so much: No, Tim, St. Patrick's Day was last month.
What does Jason have to do with Cassie other than providing random conversation filler?

From:

funbox

He got info on her for Tim, while Tim got info on a smuggler shipment. It was an exchange of information, a double coincidence of wants

From:

q99

This Tim's pretty forgiving.

-(Although the idea of Alfred's cooking being anything but perfect is clearly absurd. :P-

Yea, this is slander of the highest order!

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jcbaggee

You all say Tim's being super forgiving. I say Tim's got an audio transmitter in the pancakes that's going to attach itself to Jason's stomach lining.

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