scans_daily: Red Hood and the Outlaws #8

scars are tattoos with better stories (

scans_daily,
@ 2012-04-18 02:06 pm UTC

Entry tags:

char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, creator: kenneth rocafort, creator: scott lobdell, title: red hood and the outlaws

Red Hood and the Outlaws #8

I post here...never. I don't think I've posted anything since I joined ages ago. I'm such a lurker. But I didn't see this scene posted yet, so I thought I'd do the honors. If I messed it up somehow, broke any rules, or missed these pages being posted somehow, please feel free to tell me and I'll do what I can to fix it. :)

Jason and co are in Gotham saving some kids at a hospital when Alfred sends out his distress signal, concerning the Night of the Owls stuff. Jason is about to leave when Roy points out that a lot of people are on the job already, but Tim picks up that Jason has intercepted their call. He asks Jason to stick around and help, and Kory -- Kori, whatever -- asks Jason if he knows Tim.

This lovely little flashback occurs.

I've wanted some nice brotherly love from Tim and Jason since he came back to life in 2005. I know a lot of people are put off by the reboot, but I think this made it worthwhile for me. (Although the idea of Alfred's cooking being anything but perfect is clearly absurd. :P And I don't like how Tim's being portrayed in Teen Titans... But that's a story for another day.)

Did anyone else love the idea of Tim and Jason being buds as much as I do?

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	no subject abriel 2012-04-18 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	That's actually pretty sweet. "Like paste"....damn. And here I was always under the impression that Alfred is a kickass cook... (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

	no subject aubreys_master 2012-04-18 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah. I guess Alfred's waffle-making skills were casualties of the reboot? Who knows? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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cypherfdp, 2012-04-20 05:44 am UTC (Expand)

	no subject thefiretonight 2012-04-18 07:28 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe Steph can be reintroduced as the ultimate Bat family waffle maker! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject halloweenjack 2012-04-18 09:53 pm UTC (link)
	I've known some kickass cooks who had that one dish that should have been simple for them but that they never really managed to do even decently. Just their personal culinary blind spot, I guess. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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star_of_airdrie, 2012-04-19 01:28 am UTC (Expand)

	no subject icon_uk 2012-04-18 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	Clearly a LOT of previous Tim/Jason encounters have been erased... It's a sweet moment I grant you. (Though speaking ill of Alfred's cooking? NO ONE has EVER spoken ill of Alfred's cooking, and for good reason.) (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

	no subject aubreys_master 2012-04-18 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	Haha! Out of all the things that have been changed/lost/erased from canon by the reboot, Tim and Jay's animosity is something I'm definitely not heartbroken to see go. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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	no subject sun_man 2012-04-18 06:22 pm UTC (link)
	I hate this. The only thing Tim and Jason should be doing is beating the snot out of each other. (Reply to this)

	no subject auggie18 2012-04-18 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	Aw. This is massively out of character. Cute, but massively out of character. I'm conflicted on this. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 14 comments) (Show 14 comments)

	no subject aubreys_master 2012-04-18 06:39 pm UTC (link)
	Or it's a new side of a character that we never got to see because Jason spent most of his time, around the Bats and Tim in particular, in a hysterical rage, before. That might be a more optimistic way to look at it? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 13 comments) (Show 13 comments)

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sun_man
2012-04-18 06:40 pm UTC (link)

It was pretty much exactly what I feared. Extremely OOC, complete disregard of their previous relationship, killing attempts are just shrugged off and everything we get is pretty much a “Sorry, that I tried to kill you, bro.” over a shared breakfast.

Which in itself reads a lot like a bad fanfiction. Eating waffles together on a veranda? Really? Really?

“Hey, I tried to kill you and you actually hate what I represent, but I am cool with that. Lets be bros.”

“Oh, okay fine. I am sorry too that I tried to kill you, lets eat waffles.”

(I wish I would be joking but that is pretty much how it goes)

I was also extremely baffled by how their relationship was explained. Apparently, Tim assigned Jason to get him information about Cassie. But why he did that is not explained.

How did this happen? What made Tim consider asking Jason? How did he find Jason? Why did Jason agree to do this for him? Because he got information in return? But why did Tim not sort out any other of his actual allies first? Namely Barbara, whose past as Oracle is still intact in the reboot and who was the primary information broker of the Superhero community? Surely she could have helped him with his request? Why Jason?

I really couldn’t wrap my mind around that.

And no, I don’t hate the ship. On the contrary, they could have a really interesting dynamic and I do like the general idea of them getting over themselves and trying to be brothers. But the execution in RHatO #8 was just so poor. So blatantly OOC and illogical.

I will be in my corner, crying.

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aubreys_master
2012-04-18 06:46 pm UTC (link)

Maybe I'm happy about my headcanon being put on page and I'm not thinking it through. I'm willing to allow for that. But isn't it more likely than "shrugging off" killing attempts that those issues (and the Teen Titans issue where Jason shows up in the canary yellow tights) never happened in the DCnU? So there would be no need to shrug them off, because they just didn't exist? Johns's run on Teen Titans obviously never happened in the new canon, just judging from what we've seen on the page and even ignoring what we've heard in interviews and stuff. I've seen no evidence that Tim's old Robin book is canon either. So if none of that is canon, then it can't be taken into account and removes a lot of the problems you listed. Doesn't it?

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	no subject filthysize 2012-04-18 06:51 pm UTC (link)
	Kinda knew something like this was coming since Lobdell's on both title. I get that this is OOC, but clearly Lobdell's take on Jason is far less hostile than Winick's, so I guess there is some relaunch-shifting going on here and that this Jason was just estranged from the Bat-family since coming back, rather than blatantly antagonistic. Eh, I'll allow it. (Reply to this)

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junkurosu
2012-04-18 07:00 pm UTC (link)

This is so out of character for both of them. Even with the reboot this feels so much like a bad fanfic where the writer hasn't read anything where the two character meet up.

How the heck did this relationship start? I mean even if major changes were made, it just seems so OOC. This is just horrible writing. It has it's good moments, but damn.

I mean why the heck just create some original characters instead of stripping away the essential traits and relationship dynamics that made characters the characters.

I'll be in my angry dome.

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shadowpsykie
2012-04-18 07:09 pm UTC (link)

for me. all the things to get wiped out in the reboot im glad this was part of it. I love the new jason, he took the hints that other creators have used and made them more prevelant... they are still snarky to eachother. but they are family... they don't get along, but that does not mean they don't care. Jason always cared, which is why he was always so angry.

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	no subject shadowpsykie 2012-04-18 07:04 pm UTC (link)
	.... i'll be.... over here.... BRO!!!! sniffle..... (Reply to this)

	no subject thefiretonight 2012-04-18 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	I, for one, am pretty glad that Johns story with Jay attacking Tim at the Tower isn't canon, anymore. And honestly? I've seen so much fan fic start like this. ;) (Reply to this) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

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mrstatham
2012-04-18 07:26 pm UTC (link)

This. The Johns story was just unnecessarily ugly. I mean, granted, Tim takes Jase's role as Robin, that might irk him a little bit, but would he really go out of his way to try and antagonise and kill someone? It's a little too close to the way he got taken out, really - which is maybe the point - but I always thought his anger was better directed at Bruce and him alone.

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espanolbot
2012-04-18 07:25 pm UTC (link)

Now, if this was the hypercompetant Tim we had from just before the reboot, he'd had drugged the pancakes so he could pack Jason back off to Arkham or Blackgate or where ever, like he did with Lady Shiva. 'Cause, you know, mass murderer and all. And he doesn't have the excuse of drugs like Cass did.

Evidently the severe beating that Jason gave Tim for "replacing" him over in Teen Titans and the outright attempt at MURDERING him via stabbing him in the chest with a batarang in Battle of the Cowl aren't canon anymore...

Not really the worst or least confusing of the mysterious erasures from Bat Continuity, despite the Editorial saying that it would remain intact like the Green Lantern comics.

At least it isn't just flat out confusing, like the butchering of the Black Mirror in the new Batgirl comics, or flat out insulting, like the removal of Steph and/or Cass' Batgirl tenures, who, by the way, have gone from "We have plans!" to "We have no plans for them, but we'd like to use them, but if we were it'd have to be in a big way and people above the creative process say they're off limits!".

At least that's what the mess of opinions of what the heck is going on with those two when questions were asked at Emerald City Con and C2E2.

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aubreys_master
2012-04-18 07:30 pm UTC (link)

I never saw the Batarang thing in BftC as being a murder attempt, despite how valiantly Tony Daniel was apparently trying to discredit Jason as a character. I seem to recall Tim beating the crap out of him with a crowbar (of all things) around that moment. It was hardly the finest moment for either of them.

Are Cass and Steph not supposed to show back up in Batman Inc anymore?

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moetushie
2012-04-18 09:00 pm UTC (link)

I ... I'm glad Jason is in a better place, re: Tim and their relationship seems cute and all, but I have to say, I'm pretty bored with reboot!Jason's personality. He seems to have lost a lot of his (admittedly cracked-out) sense of humor, which, personally made him such an interesting character for me.

And up-thread, there's something about Red Hood: Lost Days not being canon anymore? Say it ain't so! Jason hasn't been so well-drawn since!

~~Okay, I have a thing for Lost Days!Jason.~~

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aubreys_master
2012-04-18 09:10 pm UTC (link)

RE: Lost Days, that is an assumption on my part. I don't know it to be a fact. But I don't see how it can stand in current continuity with the way the timeline is laid out. I guess it might be in some sense, but the timing seems weird and rushed to me?

I loved that book too. I liked Winick's Jason period. But I do enjoy him being less homicidal, less psychopathic, and more...the way I think of him being before he died? Willing to do what he felt was necessary, not understanding Batman's self-imposed limits, but not sneaking into Titans Tower in the middle of the night, wearing yellow tights, and beating up 15-year-old kids either. >>;;;

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janegray
2012-04-18 09:11 pm UTC (link)

I love this SO MUCH.

And I don't think it's OOC either. I mean, this is superhero comics we are talking about. Superheroes forgive terrible shit all the time, it's a classical trait of the genre. Whenever a villain even so much as hints at wanting to pull a Heel Face Turn, the hero will almost invariably give them a chance, no matter how many times the villain has tried to murder the hero and the hero's loved ones. Hell, no matter if the villain has tried to destroy the Universe!

And in this case in particular, the villain is the hero's brother to boot (plus, Alfred probably encouraged Tim to try and get the black sheep back). Why is it so hard to believe that, when Jason showed signs of regret for his past actions and a desire to be better, Tim decided to forgive him and be nice to him?

Thank you for posting this scene,

aubreys_master. I was having a rough day and this heartwarming reconciliation really cheered me up :)

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aubreys_master
2012-04-18 09:21 pm UTC (link)

I totally agree with you concerning how forgiving superheroes can be! I mean, this is absolutely no weirder than Bruce forgiving Hal Jordan for the whole Parallax thing. The only difference is that this happened off screen. And as I mentioned up thread, we'll probably see more of this later. Lobdell seems to like employing in media res narration. I think that if we get a long enough story from him, we'll get the expanded, developed narrative that so many people seem to think is lacking.

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	no subject whitesycamore 2012-04-18 09:17 pm UTC (link)
	I don't find this all that hard to believe - I just wish we'd had more of a gradual build-up, and a better writer. It's still cute, though. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

	no subject benicio127 2012-04-19 12:46 am UTC (link)
	The only thing I find hard to believe is Alfred could cook something that doesn't taste amazing. Honestly, Lobdell, this IS Alfred we're talking about!!!!!!! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

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littlepunkryo
2012-04-18 09:39 pm UTC (link)

Yeah I find myself not minding this much. I think it could have been WRITTEN better, but I am not complaining that a huge chunk of what was in my opinion awful drivel is apparently not canon anymore. (In fact I wish the reboot had done more of this, cleaning up the questionable/stupid stuff instead of leaving it and erasing a lot of good things).

I've always thought that Jason would have been really hurt and angry over Tim "replacing" him but imo they took it way off the rails and ruined what could have been a potentially interesting chance for character growth for Jason. It's weird because this is almost like a scene I would have expected after the low-key, more character-driven, less-over-the-top-I'm-gonna-bathe-in-your-blood confrontation I was hoping for originally. Now it's easy for me to pretend it actually happened that way.

Also, given Lobdell's penchant for writing a Jason who has apparently "dealt with" most of his issues re: the Batfam, it's not OOC for HIS Jason. His Jason has let go of a lot of shit the old one was holding onto (for good or bad, I think it's a personal preference because I understand why people are frustrated and consider him OOC). So him letting go of his issues with Tim is not really surprising.

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	no subject kenwyn89 2012-04-19 09:18 am UTC (link)
	This. Normally I'm not a Tim fan, but I quite liked him here. It's kind of nice seeing the Robins having a rational conversation, especially as Tim's now had to move on to his own persona etc. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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the_spoiler
2012-04-19 01:32 am UTC (link)

What I liked: Well, just like everyone else has said, it's a sweet moment, even if weirdly out of character (I wouldn't know. I'm no expert).
Also, Tim's eyelashes on that first page there.
Didn't like so much: No, Tim, St. Patrick's Day was last month.
What does Jason have to do with Cassie other than providing random conversation filler?

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	no subject funbox 2012-04-20 12:55 am UTC (link)
	He got info on her for Tim, while Tim got info on a smuggler shipment. It was an exchange of information, a double coincidence of wants (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject q99 2012-04-19 04:04 am UTC (link)
	This Tim's pretty forgiving. -(Although the idea of Alfred's cooking being anything but perfect is clearly absurd. :P- Yea, this is slander of the highest order! (Reply to this)

	no subject jcbaggee 2012-04-19 07:54 am UTC (link)
	You all say Tim's being super forgiving. I say Tim's got an audio transmitter in the pancakes that's going to attach itself to Jason's stomach lining. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject whitesycamore 2012-04-19 09:12 am UTC (link)
	That would be some gross listening. Particularly if Alfred's pancakes are as indigestible as they claim. :/ (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject eyz 2012-04-19 08:03 am UTC (link)
	Ah! Here's some new pages from ~~Deadpool~~ Jason Todd, finally! What has he been up to lately?... Awww, Tim and Jason acting like nice brothers^^ Why do I prefer the way Tim's portrayed here? Also, when's he getting his solo title back?? (Reply to this)

Plot jumps

sir_razorback
2012-04-19 04:06 pm UTC (link)

I think that this is a side of Jason that alot of folks have been waiting to see, namely that he's finally coming to grips with his zombie brain. Aside from that, this isn't going to be the last time the DCnU throws stuff like this at the readers. if i were a fly on the wall during the planning sessions, I bet I would overhear something like this.

"Ok, this is what we want to be doing with these characters, and we want it hot. All within the first year hot!"

"But there's alot of deep history here, we can't just throw it out like you want."

"Yes you can, it's called Flashbacks. We'll fill in the blanks as we can think of good ideas to fill into them. In the meantime, who is it that signs your checks again?"

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	no subject liara_shadowsong 2012-04-20 07:59 pm UTC (link)
	I love the idea of Tim and Jason being buddies. Also, Tim is ridiculously pretty here, jeez. (Something Alfred cooks being less than perfect? Blasphemy! ...Or, well, maybe it's the one and only exception? Or Tim and Jason both like their waffles ridiculously crumbly or something?) (Reply to this)

	no subject brilliantnova 2012-04-28 05:42 am UTC (link)
	I love this (Reply to this)

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blunderbuss
2012-05-09 09:59 am UTC (link)

I'm of two minds about this.

On one hand, yeah, I love the idea of Jason's character being handled with a bit more of an even hand, instead of 'raging asshole'. I've always wanted to read more about Jason Todd but I keep getting put off.

On the OTHER hand, 'technically he's not your dad anymore'? REALLY? That's a bit harsh to say to anyone, much less to someone with legit daddy issues. I'm really he'd just let that slide without SOME reaction, even if it was more subtle than instant rage.

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