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[personal profile] icon_uk posting in [community profile] scans_daily
One of the most interesting things that the Wally West Flash series did was the the Rogues, the loose assortments of villains that had plagued Barry for years, and retconning them as... well, a sort of family, a dysfunctional family but they a bond between them. Originally they had little in common with each other, other than they bought their costumes in the same place and were united in their hatred for the Flash.

I'm still preparing my Serpent Society history post, but I found this in my LJ gallery lelarly having intended to post it at some point, but I don't think I ever did, so here is another take on villainous relationships, before it became somewhat friendlier, for a given value of friendship of course, as via cary bates and Carmine Infantino, we find out how the Rogues originally handled the death of "one of their own"

Eobard Thawne was the original Reverse-Flash, he was most notable for murdering Iris Allen (It didn't take... eventually), and then later trying to kill Barry's then new fiancée Fiona Webb. It was whilst defending Fiona that Barry snapped Thawne's neck, killing him (more or less permanently, or at least for an impressively long time). We take up the story almost immediately afterwards...

(Worth noting that Carmine Infantino, who is still with us at the grand age of 86, was associated with The Flash for over 30 years, designing the Barry Allen Flash in 1956, and drawing the last four years of the book from 1981 to 1985. His style is instantly recognisable and though not always my favourite, he always has a special place in my heart from my childhood. The inking here, from Dennis Jensen,  is amongst the best I've seen on Infantino's work.)

And how do certain elements take the news?

It's not just in Gotham that the ordinary cops on the beat must occasionally wonder what the hell kind of a job they've taken on.

Please note this is also before most attempts to "humanise" the villains, or make them particularly sympathetic, also many years before the Pied Piper came out of the closet.

Ouch! Like I said, these are not particularly well balanced individuals.


And thus started "The Trial of the Flash", a story which more or less literally put the nail in the coffin of Barry Allen, but that's a post for another day, by someone who cares about it more than me.

Date: 2012-04-28 02:22 pm (UTC)
rainspirit: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rainspirit
From what little I saw of the Rogues in... what was it, a Final Crisis spin-off? I find them to be the most intriguing aspect of the Flash "lore", so to speak. If it were anyone other than that particular hero (who I was never raised with, and don't hold much interest for) then I'd probably be seeking out their issues personally.

So thanks for the post. It's great how... HUMAN the dialogue is, in spite of all the supervillain weirdness.

Date: 2012-04-28 02:22 pm (UTC)
katzedecimal: made by Modnaf (Pipsterdansen!)
From: [personal profile] katzedecimal
It says something about what my years with this community has done to me, that what stands out to me the most about the art in this story are the so-round, so-firm, so-fully-packed buttocks on the policemen running up the stairs *facepalm* Et tu, Carmine? It's also somewhat worrying when one realizes that the little window in the giant flying boomerang ship is putting naked frozen Eobard on display for all of Central City. Honestly, I'm not sure who's more twisted, the Rogues or the creators who thought this was a great idea for a story XDDD

And I disagree about the Trickster. The Trickster is very well balanced - running on air in pixie shoes isn't nearly as easy as he makes it look ^_~

Date: 2012-04-28 03:17 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
"running on air in pixie shoes isn't nearly as easy as he makes it look"

Are you speaking from experience? =p

Date: 2012-04-28 03:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
...how do you pilot a flying boomerang?

Date: 2012-04-28 03:17 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
Carefully! =D

Date: 2012-04-28 03:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
I'd think that the cleaning bill alone would require at least two robberies.

Date: 2012-04-28 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
It seems like it would make an awful getaway vehicle, what with always returning to the scene of the crime.

Date: 2012-04-28 04:33 pm (UTC)
riddler13: (Default)
From: [personal profile] riddler13
Oh, this thread will certainly keep me coming back! :D

Date: 2012-04-28 05:04 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Even when he's throwing pies... at himself!

Date: 2012-04-28 08:04 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Kamino Neko's default icon... (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
First of all, you keep a large supply of Gravol on hand...

Date: 2012-04-28 05:45 pm (UTC)
grazzt: (Default)
From: [personal profile] grazzt
Is it just me, or do modern (up to, at least, pre-nuDC) retellings of classic Flash stories try to downplay just how big a part Piper was of the Rogues? I know he went hero, but that is a part of his history and shouldn't be whitewashed.

Date: 2012-04-28 08:07 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Kamino Neko's default icon... (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
Not really, no. It only comes up when it's logical that it ought, but they never really shy from it in those cases.

Date: 2012-04-28 08:17 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Kamino Neko's default icon... (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
Odd design to the boomerangs, here...

I'm not willing to say they wouldn't fly right, since real boomerangs do come in a rather startling array of designs, but the thick 'club' in the place of one wing seems like it'd prevent it from flying like a boomerang is supposed to.

Date: 2012-04-28 08:47 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I've said before I don't fully "get" the Rogues. They don't want to kill the Flash (his Super-friends would go after them). They don't want to rule a Central City criminal empire (Too much work). It doesn't seem they are in it for the money (few supervillains really are). So, what's the deal? It is like the Rogues are the Rogues as something to do.

Date: 2012-04-28 10:52 pm (UTC)
pyynk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyynk
They're in it for the money. Just not enough money to get on anyone's radar. Think of them as blue collar criminals. Batman's villains do it for the glory, Superman's want to beat him, the Rogue's just need to make the mortgage payment.

Date: 2012-04-29 12:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
And as Mirror Master pointed out in his solo issue, it's not about that. It's about challenging themselves, going out there with what they do best, fighting one of the best heroes around and holding their own.

Date: 2012-04-29 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
Why can't it be both?

Make a score big enough to get you through a few months, and prove to yourself and the world that you have the chops by crossing swords with The Flash?

Being blue collar does not preclude challenging one's limits.

Date: 2012-04-29 01:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
It's not impossible to do both, not by a long shot. And frankly, that's a simplification of most of the Rogues. They all go out to fight Flash and to make a buck, but the underlining reasons are different for each.

Cold wants to prove himself to himself, and has a grudge against law enforcement.

Heatwave wanted to hide his sickness, his pyromania, as a gimmick.

Weather Wizard wants the world to respect his intelligence (though he's not that smart).

Mirror Master wants to escape into a fantasy land of heroes and villains, so he doesn't have to face the fact that he murdered his father.

Boomerbutt's an ass who was never good at anything else and only won any respect when he sucker-punched the Flash

And the list goes on. What makes them blue collar is their (relatively) simple weapons. The Flash provides a challenge that they can overcome with enough cunning, and the money keeps them going until the next fight.

Date: 2012-04-29 04:41 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Whenever I see the Rogues, I think of a line the actual Rick James said on Chappelle's Show about Charlie Murphy's story about Rick grinding muddy boots into Eddie Murphy's new couch.

"I never did things just to do them. What, I'm gonna just all of the sudden jump up and grind my feet on somebody's couch like it's something to do? I got a little more sense than that. Yeah, I remember grinding my feet on Eddie's couch."


Which I guess means I just equated the Flash to Eddie Murphy.

Date: 2012-04-29 04:44 pm (UTC)
vspope: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vspope
In one of the early Wally stories, Wally attends a Rogues' Gallery banquet at a motor lodge. (Trickster sent him an invite as a joke, not thinking he'd show up.) Once he does, he's treated mostly amicably by the Rogues, who make it clear that while they're not THRILLED that there's a new Flash, the vendettas died with Barry. In between threatening to dig up Barry's body and desecrate it, Golden Glider says "I hated the man for what he did, not the costume."

Later on, Cold talks with Wally and says that Barry's real masterstroke wasn't his speed, but making things more about outwitting and defeating HIM than about power or blood or money. By keeping the Rogues focused on battling the Flash, Barry kept them from unleashing their creativity and powers on Central City.

The death of the Top also comes to mind; the Rogues treated his remains quite well and gave him a full wake. (Of course, the Top then revealed via tape-recording that he'd set bombs all over Central City, because if he couldn't rob Central City, no one could...)

Date: 2012-04-30 03:06 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
In the Waid-Morrison era, MM described himself as committing crimes to make money to pay for tech to commit bigger crimes to make more money to pay for better tech et cetera. No one of those things seemed to be THE goal for him. That was revised a bit by Johns, of course.

Date: 2012-04-29 12:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
Reminds of a scene on Johns' Crossfire arc (before he sucked).

A detective pointed out that Cold was smarter than this, that he shouldn't be going after small scores, and asks him why.

Cold then pointed out to the police detective that his suit costs several thousand dollars, and asks him why he spends so much on suits. When the detective fails to replies, Cold says

"Hard to explain the vices, isn't it?"

Date: 2012-04-29 12:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
Not really, as the person in question was a cop (and thus didn't have alot of disposable income).

And he wasn't talking about why Cold committed crimes, but why he went after the small scores when he was smart enough to shoot for the big game (ironically, he said this as Cold was undermining the current Rogue leader to establish himself as top dog).

Date: 2012-04-29 01:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
It is a vice when you don't need it and it wastes money. The Detective's suit cost somewhere around a thousand bucks, after all.

Date: 2012-04-29 01:15 am (UTC)
kraesil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kraesil
They went to the trouble of stealing the body, said a bunch of nice things.. then BAM! Destroyed his body.


Date: 2012-04-29 07:26 am (UTC)
kraesil: (mouse)
From: [personal profile] kraesil
Hmm, you've got a point.

Date: 2012-04-29 02:56 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
One thing I did like is how the Rogues were a group... Flash's speedster foes were never numbered among them (with the semi-exception of Boomerang II).

If you tried to take Flash on in the speed department, you were on your own.

Date: 2012-04-29 07:26 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Well by Wally's time at least. Zoom (Hunter) and the Rogues hated each other. Savitar and some of Wally's other speed foes never had anything to do with them, and they did express their dislike of speedsters in general on occasion (It came up when Boomer was joining up with them).

Date: 2012-04-30 04:30 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Kamino Neko's default icon... (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
Well, Zoom was a completely different model of villain than the Rogues - they're straight up villains, admitted as such, proud to be. Zoom...was messed up in the head and thought of himself as a tool to turn Wally into a better hero. Plus the Rogues had a 'keep their families out of it' rule, whereas Zoom targeted them when it struck him as useful.

So, he and they seeing eye-to-eye was never going to happen.

Date: 2012-04-29 04:38 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Blue Devil)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
When you get right down to it, 95% of supervillains are blithering idiots. Cold, Boomerang, the Trickster, all of them could have sold their inventions either to the Military or to the Police for staggering sums. Yet, they choose to commit crimes for some reason. The worst offender of the lot that I can think of (outside of Midas, who could turn anything to gold) was Paste Pot Pete/The Trapster. I know that no law enforcement or military agencies would ever want an adhesive that would non-lethally bind 99% of the population.

Of course, talk to any police officer, and they'll tell you the same: Most of the criminals they run into would never be caught if they didn't do something stupid.

I'm not so fond of the Post-Crisis rendering of the Rogues as professional criminals--after all, before they were fun wastes of time for Barry. Still, this just doesn't fit for me.

Date: 2012-04-29 04:18 pm (UTC)
randyripoff: (Falcon)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
I can't disagree with you on that. I'm more familiar with the Silver Age Flash stories than those of the Bronze Age forward. It does seem to me that the Rogues are much more bloodthirsty now than they were back then--of course, a lot of that had to do with Code restrictions.

Date: 2012-04-30 01:31 am (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Is Blue Cobalt still Barry's twin who happens to be be Thawne? Or what's the story behind that?

Date: 2012-04-30 12:43 pm (UTC)
eyz: (Booster Gold)
From: [personal profile] eyz
I love these ol' Flash issues^^


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