starwolf_oakley: (Default)
[personal profile] starwolf_oakley posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Tom DeFalco and Ron Frenz did a great run on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. They made Spider-Man the "giant killer" of Marvel in the 1980s.
Despite that, this makes no sense whatsoever.

From AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #270, 1985. Spider-Man is not wearing the symbiote.

No. Just... no.

Maybe my opinion is shaped from reading too many Galactus and Silver Surfer stories, but when a being gets the Power Cosmic from Galactus, he/she isn't really a "being" anymore. Any man-made object used as a transport or focus (surfboard, ax, staff) isn't man-made anymore. It is Galactus-made. It is made up of the Power Cosmic. That's why I understand Terrax's ax being left on his planet after Phoenix Force "purged" it (in MARVEL POINT ONE), because an ax that Galactus made can withstand. any. thing.

tl;dr: Galactus built his heralds to last. Against anything. Except Galactus.

No matter how much determination/guts/power/responsibility he has, Spider-Man cannot beat Firelord unconscious. He just can't.

Date: 2012-05-01 09:46 am (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
Ah, yes. The panels that are almost guaranteed to start a flamewar on any comics site anywhere. There was this huge thread on the Hero Games site back in the day, where people were arguing (using Hero Games stats) whether Spidey could possibly have actually done this.

Date: 2012-05-01 10:13 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I'm not sure what ground anyone would have for suggesting he could (Unless this was during his Captain Universe phase). Substitute Silver Surfer for Firelord in this one and see how far it would go.

Date: 2012-05-01 11:40 am (UTC)
sherkahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sherkahn
This is all under the assumption that each of the Heralds are equal in strength and durability.

Silver Surfer =/= Firelord =/= Nova =/= Terrax =/= Morg =/= Airwalker, etc.

They were all heralds & scouts, not weapons of war.

Date: 2012-05-01 12:01 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
They were all transformed by Galactus, using his insane levels of cosmic power, into beings at the VERY least capable of surviving in deep space, travelling at up to and beyond translight speeds, assorted energy manifestation attacks and surviving planetary re-entry like they were stepping outside their front door. They had to be able to fight entire fleets of ships every now and again, since Galactus tended to attract those who objected to his presence rather often.

None of them were pushovers and ALL of them should be way beyond Spider-Man, whose heart may be pure, but whose strength level is only in the 10 ton range. (I use only strictly in a subjective sense of course)

I'm all for the underdog in a fight (You can't be a Robin/Cypher fan and not be), but this is akin to Bucky punching out Juggernaut.

Date: 2012-05-01 12:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I know ten tons is more or less official, but it seems a bit much. He has the proportionate strength of a spider, but I don't think most spiders can lift over 50 times their own weight.

Date: 2012-05-01 01:33 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
I think "10 tens" is because someone figured that's how much he had to have lifted in that famous Silver Age issue where, after much angst and struggle, he lifted a collapsed building off of himself. But that ignores that the whole point of the feat was that it was supposed to be beyond his ability, that he accomplished through sheer determination the impossible.

Date: 2012-05-01 01:47 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
There are those who consider that to be his actual superpower...

Date: 2012-05-01 08:08 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And I'm one of them, Spider-Man managing a supreme effort is a fine and noble thing, but when he, metaphorically, shifts the moon out of orbit to achieve his win, then it loses that sense of awesomeness.

Date: 2012-05-01 01:46 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
Basically it was comparisons to Thor, that one time Thor got hit by that thing that Firelord got hit by and their different reactions to it, some Kevin-Bacon-esque degrees of separation to some thing that Spider-Man did that one time... and so on. Plus, the fact that it happened in the comic, and thus must be true.

It must also be said that, if you're a former Herald, and you haven't had your own comic (or maybe "aren't the Silver Surfer"), you become a lot wussier than when you're an active Herald. Kind of like Spikification, where a terrifying bad guy becomes less competent when they turn good.

Date: 2012-05-01 01:56 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Fair point, I don't think Galactus ever really thought through a retirement plan for his heralds. Still, a guy who can still fly through space unaided at lightspeed plus, and survive atmospheric re-entry without needing an actual spaceship should be able to deal with Spider-Man on a physical level in any event.

And I'm a firm believer in the "fanwank to explain discrepancies" approach, but I think this one would have defeated me in trying to explain it. Kudos to those who managed it, however misguided they have have been to do so! :)

Date: 2012-05-01 04:01 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
Bizarrely, if I remember this correctly, the anti- faction did a better job of convincing me that it could happen than the pro- faction did :)

Ah, flamewars :)

Date: 2012-05-01 08:29 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Ah, flamewars :)

It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. (Or their cool)

Date: 2012-05-01 08:58 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar much "cool" do you think people arguing Spider-Man versus Firelord can have? :)

Date: 2012-05-01 05:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
To be fair, for most of the fight Firelord IS playing with Spidey. (remember, the entire thing started becuase Firelord wanted pizza)

Although it should be noted that Firelord is apparently capable of increasing the temperature of his skin to the point where it melts bullets before they can hit him so... How is Spidey punching him again?

Date: 2012-05-01 08:17 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
He's capable of it, but if you read the story, Spider-Man doesn't touch him directly for most of it. He kicks the guy in the introductory panel, but the rest of the fight involves throwing things at him, tricking him into explosions, and dropping a building on his head. By the time he starts actually hitting him, Firelord's been winded by multiple assaults and is utterly enraged, to the point where he's not actually thinking that clearly.

Date: 2012-05-01 08:30 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And in fairness, that tends to be a fairly common superheroic approach to such things too, keep the bad guy too off balance to focus their powers and you stand a better chance.

Date: 2012-05-02 07:40 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
I was thinking that it was the Uni-Power too, but I don't think that it's that proximate to Acts of Vengeance. (Having the issue number that this came from would be nice, cough cough.) Just bad writing. The closest thing that I can think of to this was Nova knocking out Thor during Nova's first series, but Marv Wolfman was always dropping hints that Nova was much more powerful than Rich Rider knew.

Date: 2012-05-03 02:04 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
So... a few years before Acts of Vengeance. Got it, thanks.


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