Earth 2 #1

May. 2nd, 2012 01:49 am
superfangirl1: (Default)
[personal profile] superfangirl1 posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Apokolips led by Steppenwolf has wiped out Metropolis and pretty well conquering Earth and in a last mad desperate gamble. The Trinity of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman manage to free the world from the Parademon grip, sacrificing themselves in the process in grand fashion.

Five years later on the anniversary of the Trinity deaths to save the earth.

Sitting silently by himself in the woods depress by Joan words. Jay Garrick meets Mercury after witnessing him crash near by in a crater.

Date: 2012-05-03 12:40 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
Really? REALLY?

Think about what is going on in this page.
How are we supposed to react? Specifically, what does Robinson want us to feel?

I imagine we are supposed to think "Oh, poor Jay!" and "Joan is such a bitch!".

But that's wrong. Dead wrong. Maybe Joan is being tactless to Jay. But this is a break-up. We don't know enough about their relationship to say whether Joan's assessment of Jay is accurate, but knowing the typical DC young hero archetype, it sounds entirely plausible.

But she is a person, and young woman, who is completely autonomous. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Joan deciding to break up with Jay, because she can make her own decisions and these must be respected.

When "Nice Guys" complain about being dumped by women, and try to "win them back", they are not respecting the decisions or the autonomy of women.

Date: 2012-05-03 04:29 pm (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
I OBVIOUSLY have no problem with her breaking up with him. I have huge problem with the way she broke up with him. I am sure Jay may not be a very good boyfriend, but there is big diffrence, between ambitious woman, that wants to achieve something and cold, mean, careeristic (I hope that word exists) asshole. I'm sorry, but there is no way you can excuse this kind of behavior. By all means and purposes, Jay is here acting pretty politely, yet she treats him like piece of crap. How about giving him better explanation then "Look, you are a loser, I rule, fuck you."

I agree about "nice guys" thing. I just think if these "nice guys" were really dumped for such reason, why trying win these women back? How about finding women, that are actually nice too?

And you know what? I know nobody is gonna stand behind me after this, but I don't think anyone would anyway (it's okay, diffrent opinions and all), but I am just gonna say it: I honestly don't believe, that if it was Jay talking like this to Joan, any of you would defend him

Date: 2012-05-03 05:16 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
no, of course not.

But, you know, the fact that career women are frequently diminished, ignored, and silenced by being labeled "cold bitches".

As for Jay acting politely, you do realize Joan actually explicitly states in the scan that this is NOT their break-up. They had ALREADY broken up, and Jay just won't leave her alone (even saying he is going to follow her). THAT IS HELLA CREEPY!

Of course not, because if Jay were talking like this to Joan, the dynamic would be different. Joan could have definitely said this nicer, but the fact is that she had a right to say it and a right to make her own decisions, she is NOT required to be with Jay just because he is nice, a view that is shockingly common in society. If Jay were talking like this to Joan, he would be an ass, but if you used the exact same dialogue, he wouldn't be a mysogystic ass.

Date: 2012-05-04 03:19 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
did Jay get the message it was a break up? Maybe for him a phone call and no civilized dinner and no break up sex would have sent a clearer message. Maybe he thinks she's simply considering distance an insurmountable with the amount of time she'd need to work and he's saying he'd make the effort

Date: 2012-05-04 04:53 am (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
Ehm, no they are not. Atleast not where I live. And I can think of a lot of positive potrayals of career women.

And you do realise, based on what she said, she never actually told him they are breaking up?

How would the dynamic be diffrent? They would in exactly the same situation, only diffrence would be change of genders. So, you admit Joan is still an ass here?

I know break-ups can be very hurtful and make people say horrible things, but I would never treat my exgirlfriend like this. Even if she was so dumb to get it, I would not act like this. Sorry.

Date: 2012-05-04 05:16 am (UTC)
benuben: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benuben
Just one thing I want to add: I'm basing my opinion solely on this scene. I'm more than willing to change my opinion, if next issue she call him and says something like "Look, I know I've been kind of harsh, it's just, I tried to tell you nicely, but you just didn't get it and I just wanted to end it", or reveal that Jay was a total jerk, who treated her like badly (which ain't likely).

Date: 2012-05-04 12:54 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
Yes, they are. I have no idea where you live, but career women are very frequently labeled "cold bitches" to diminish them. There is a whole butch of literature about being a career women, and how they aren't treated equally or fairly even today. And yes, they are sometimes portrayed positively, but just like in comics we have both Wonder Woman and Identity Crisis.

I admit I also haven't looked beyond this page. But the fact that she told him in the very first panel that they broke up and were over doesn't change the fact that by the end of the page he still doesn't get it.

The dynamic would be different because there is something called "cultural attitudes towards gender" and "socialization", meaning the way men treat women are different than the way women treat men.

And I think I said this already, but I do think Joan was overly harsh. But I can also understand her frustration with having an ex-boyfriend who would not realize that they broke, was condescending about her career (and therefore intelligence), continued to follow her, suggested he would follow her cross-country even after she told him not to, etc.

And, obviously, the people on s_d are not like the people on something like CBR. I haven't looked, but I bet the reaction to this on CBR would be "Joan is such a bitch" and if the genders were reversed it would be "Can't Joan see that she's holding Jay back?".

Date: 2012-05-03 05:44 pm (UTC)
gamerguy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gamerguy
"I imagine we are supposed to think "Oh, poor Jay!" and "Joan is such a bitch!".

Indeed, because that's what she is. Hopefully there will be no 'winning her back' storyline, because she's not worth winning. She was perfectly happy to romp in the sack with him while it was convenient for her and now that he's not convenient, he gets left on the curb like a puppy that's gotten too big for the apartment. Way to be classy, Joan.

Mod Note

Date: 2012-05-03 05:47 pm (UTC)
salinea: Deadpool has a fucking horned hat on and is ready to kick gum and chew ass. Errr, moderate s_d. (mod hat)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Putting the thread on freeze while the Mod team discuss this comment.

Mod Warning

Date: 2012-05-03 07:09 pm (UTC)
salinea: Deadpool has a fucking horned hat on and is ready to kick gum and chew ass. Errr, moderate s_d. (mod hat)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Hi! [community profile] scans_daily is a feminist community. I encourage you to read the community rules and ethos if you're not sure what that means. Because of this we do not allow the use of gendered insults such as "bitch" in a negative manner. (In case you wonder the line you quote was not deemed problematic because the use was obviously in order to call out problematic, sexist writing. Likewise, the sarcastic use by [profile] captainbellmain below on this same post isn't an issue either.) You however chose to call a character by that word in a genuine sexist manner. Please, remember not to do it again.

This is your FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING. Please note that if you receive two further warnings you will lose the ability to post on this community.

Date: 2012-05-03 06:48 pm (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
Yeah, what's gross here is that Jay starts out being really creepy, talking about seeing off "my girl" going off on her cute "adventure" and suggesting he'll come out to see her as if they're still going out. So her firmly telling him that they really did break up and he's not just going to ignore it and treat her like his girlfriend until she gives in makes sense.

But then she reveals that she broke up with him for terrible reasons that are wrong and make her shallow and horrible--and sound like a set up for him to Prove Her Wrong. Which is what makes it into a bit of a creepy sexist fantasy. She's a horrible person, but she should be a horrible person who wants him. Suddenly it's just all that her being a jerk and he's just being nice and supportive despite the fact that she doesn't deserve it.

Date: 2012-05-03 10:55 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
See, I can understand if the WAY Joan said it is kind of mean (the fourth panel is unusually harsh).

But, she is right. Jay is creepy. He calls her "my girl" even though they have broken up, and she rightly calls him out for being condescending. Jay is not treating Joan like an autonomous, intelligent being. He is not respecting her. This is classic "Nice Guy" syndrome. And knowing everything we know about DC's young hero archetype, her reason (that she is a go-getter career person and he is a fresh out of college do-nothing) sounds plausibly accurate.

So I don't think her reasons are wrong, just the way she phrased them.

And how exactly is Jay being "nice and supportive"? He's openly condescending, and then expresses that he wants to follow her even though she tells him not to. That sounds less like supportive and more like controlling.

Date: 2012-05-03 11:10 pm (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
He's not being nice and supportive. I'm saying that the way it's written, with his Nice Guy condescension followed by her ham-handed "I'm going to make lots of money and you're going no place, loser!" I think many readers will take that as a signal to not only see her as a shallow woman who only cares about money and misses the true worth of the superior guy she's with who just hasn't proved his awesomeness yet, but read the earlier stuff as more of the same. As if his not acknowledging that they've broken up is actually him just showing he supports her and loves her even though she doesn't appreciate it and insults him.

Iow, I think this panel is made to appeal to the Nice Guy fantasy when it detours from her criticism of his behavior here into her predicting that he's going nowhere and saying she's superior to him. I think there's probably plenty of readers who come away wanting him to prove her wrong and then dump her for being mean. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, she's both "the prize" and "no prize."


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