The New Mutants discuss religion - Guest starring an actual god (or not)

[icon_uk]

Another of my "Accentuate the Positive" posts, where I cease whining about current comics, and dig out old ones I enjoyed... I'm not sure, does that make me offically an old fogey?

After the events of New Mutants #60, I didn't buy the comic regularly again, I hadn't much liked Louise Simonson's run, and that was the final straw. I didn't feel like I missed much.

Then a couple of years later, I saw New Mutants #81 on the shelves, a done-in-one story by Chris Claremont and guest penciller Louise Williams. I wonder if it was an inventory story, as it's also mostly a flashback and features neither the regular artist nor writer.

Comic books rarely deal with religion, and perhaps that's just as well, since it's incredibly easy to offend someone be they theist, polytheist or atheist. But it can be done...



At this point in the New Mutants history, Magma had left the team to join the Hellions, feeling (for no readily apparent reason) that they were more her kind of people. She and Empath had started a sort of relationship (Following on from Empath undergoing a sort of emotional catharsis and his malevolent side being revealed to be a shell created by a lonely little boy... a plot that never worked for me, it's a fine plot arc in and of itself, but Empath just seemed to be a much more interesting, dynamic character when he was, basically, a vile little shit.)

In any event, both of them are now in Brazil. Manuel/Empath is also a practising Catholic and has been attending Sunday Mass. Amara has not joined him, she has never been comfortable with a religion that, based on it's history in South America even if nothing else, is intolerant of other faiths.



Manuel is slightly baffled by this, and returns the challenge, to which Amara smiles that she knows her gods are real, she's met hers.

We flashback to a happier time, when the New Mutants numbered nine (including that cute blond linguist) and are enjoying a night at the cinema... well, enjoying for all the wrong reasons...

The movie? A Greek-historical-fantasy "epic" about HERCULES!!

I've trimmed the scenes of the movie, because it is just as bad as you might imagine... and you can imagine a bad movie better than I can show you one. (It's even better though because it clearly IS Hercules... yeah, THAT guy.... but the kids have no reason to believe that that's the case since they've never met him. He's just a lousy actor to them)



Doug getting all hand-holdy with Xian I think has to be seen in context of him making his declamation in a suitably over-dramatic serious tone.



Claremont has his flaws as a writer, but I always liked his crowd scenes like this, with group banter..

Amara, though, is feeling guilty.



That night, back at the mansion, she wonders if, in joining the team to learn more about the outside world, she's lost something more important, her own faith and heritage, and so....



Suddenly, a gust of wind blows out the brazier as the window slams open.....



(Actually we saw her chat with Doug in Latin a time or two, but it's clearly not the same)

Amara is NOT pleased by this, she assumes it's a stunt that the other New Mutants cooked up to embarass her, getting the actor from the awful movie to come and pretend to be the real Hercules in front of her (Given they have unlimited funds through Roberto and a teleporter on the team, it's not THAT impossible I suppose). The team deny all responsibility.

Hercules is surprised by this, he'd expected a LITTLE more respect from Amara at least, but as he demonstrates his abilities, the team do point out that they're not that uncommon. Yes, he's strong, but so is Sunspot. Yes, he can throw a mace to shatter a boulder, but so can Cannonball. Yes, he can leap to great heights, but Warlock can fly.... and so on... It seems much more likely that he's a mutant like they are, using a name borrowed from a demigod of legend (Which Amara finds rather shameful of him)

Hercules then decides to REALLY prove his point



We get a quick scene in Olympus, where we discover that Zeus is NOT happy with Hercules at the moment. The movie made a mockery out of the entire pantheon. Zeus feels it's time Hercules learned that gods NEED the faith of mortals, and mockery destroys faith. Amara doubts her faith because of Hercules' foolishness in making the movie and simply EXPECTING faith when he showed up. Until Hercules realises this and does something about it, in invocation terms, he's grounded.

Hercules doesn't know this, he simply feels slightly lost at not getting any result from calling on HIS deity. Amara recognises the emotions, after all she's feeling them herself. But Hercules is determined to prove himself to her, and invites her to join him until he can do so.

So they catch the last train to New York, with Hercules promising her accommodation at Avengers Mansion.

She asks him why, if he's a superhero, he didn't use a superhero name?



Oooh! Burn! :)

Hercules tries to show his worth by stopping a getaway car outside club (With Amara helping)



And partying...



She leaves him at this point, feeling REALLY disappointed, he's done nothing to prove himself worthy of special respect, and certainly not worship.

As she walks down the street, a convenient comic book style disaster occurs. The gas main in a nearby building blows up... Since fire means nothing to her, she immediately goes to help... Hercules, being a hero and all, joins her and they manage to save several lives. Finally all seems safe, but...



Hercules rescues all three of them, and then douses the fire with the contents of a rooftop watertank

Alas, not everyone made it out unharmed, the kid who was holding the baby yelled so loudly to get attention for Amara that he breathed in flame, and destroyed his bronchial membrances. He's suffocating and there's nothing that can be done to save him.

The doctor tells Herc and Amara that his parents were on vacation and are heading home, but they won't get there in time, he only has a couple of hours left at most.



I've always loved the next line

"The stories last till dawn, likewise Jaime Suarez's life"

Hercules is heartbroken, he's three thousand years old, and immortal, but has never learned to accept the loss of someone he cared about. Jaime was as brave as any warrior he'd ever met, saving the lives of others at the cost of his own. Compared to that...





We return to the present where Amara reiterates he question to Manuel. She KNOWS her gods exist, she's MET them. How can he be so sure that HIS beliefs are true.



It's perhaps a little surprising that a good Catholic boy like Manuel didn't just quote the Gospel of John, Chapter 20, Verse 29, it's one of the more famous quotes in Jesus words to Thomas after the Resurrection; ‘You believe because you can see me. Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe."

As a Catholic myself (Though as you might imagine I have issues with certain parts of the dogma), I really like this story, it manages to be respectful to both Manuel's faith and Amara's.

Comments

[sindra]

Tactful representation of not one, but two religions in a mainstream media?



What happened to these small wonders of writing? I don't see them enough anymore.

[kraesil]

What sindra said.

[nefrekeptah]

Honestly, I never saw enough of them ever.

[crabby_lioness]

It's sad they don't make them like this anymore.

And sadder still that they wouldn't be published today.

[nefrekeptah]

Sorry? We see all variety of stories published today, and I see no reason this could be an exception. If someone wanted to write a story like this, I don't see the editors stopping him. Hell, Hercules could still be questioned whither or not he's a God, and the only difference is that he wouldn't be talking in that fake Pseudo-Shakespearean accent.

[lilacsigil]

I'm a life-long atheist, and I always loved this story - Amara's faith was not given cheaply, and she didn't have to dismiss Manuel's faith to gain comfort and strength from her own. Thank you for posting it!

[salinea]

I read this very recently, and yeah, it's a wonderful story about how complicated and varied faith can be. ♥

I hadn't realised Claremont had penned it!! but i'm not surprised lol.

[crinos]

You know, Empath's touching speech about faith might be more impressive if not for the fact I knew he was an evil little scumball who used and abused everyone around him with his powers.

[sherkahn]

Which makes his character motivations all the more intriguing, because he pretty much knows he's damned by the rules of his own faith.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, though as I note, there had been an attempt to "rehabilitate" him at this point by giving him a catharsis for his actions as a "misunderstood" child. He's trying to make some amends for his past.

[md84]

It strikes me that Magma is really unlucky in terms of being manipulated. She's been manipulated by Empath, that creepy guy with a tentacle-face in his chest, Selene, and she had to go on a date with Mephisto.

[angelophile]

I always imagined religion in the Marvel universe worked in a similar way to the Discworld universe. There's that quote from Pratchett that goes: “Most witches don’t believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don’t believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.” I can imagine people accepting Herc and others as gods and demi-gods by a certain definition, but not running around worshiping them.

[salinea]

See, this is exactly why this comics is awesome and is respectful unlike Pratchett. It didn't just assume that every religions has a model of faith that works the same as Christianity, it actually confronted different models without trying to make one seem ridiculous.

[icon_uk]

"You know, Mrs. Ogg, you have a way of showing respect to your god that would make the average atheist green with envy" (as the King of the Elves put it)

Or indeed, Granny Weatherwax's slightly terrifying view on how religion might take her.

Now if I'd seen him, really there, really alive, it'd be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did care two hoots about people, who watched 'em like a father and cared for 'em like a mother...well, you wouldn't catch me sayin' things like 'there are two sides to every question' and 'we must respect other people's beliefs.' You wouldn't find me just being gen'rally nice in the hope that it'd all turn out all right in the end, not if that flame was burning in me like an unforgivin' sword. And I did say burnin', Mister Oats, 'cos that's what it'd be. You say that you people don't burn folk or sacrifice people anymore, but that's what true faith would mean, y'see? Sacrficin' your own life, one day at a time to the flame, declarin' the truth of it, workin' for it, breathin' the soul of it. That's religion. Anything else is just...is just bein' nice. And a way of keeping in touch with the neighbors."

She relaxed slightly, and went on in a quieter voice: "Anyway, that's what I'd be, if I really believed. And I don't think that's fashionable right now, 'cos it seems that if you sees evil now you have to wring your hands and say 'oh deary me, we must debate this.' That's my two penn'orth, Mister Oats. You be happy to let things lie. Don't chase faith, 'cos you'll never catch it." She added, almost as an aside, "But, perhaps, you can live faithfully."

Agreed on the "deity-ish, but not actually divine" in the MU and indeed the DCU

Even pre-Crisis Wonder Woman accepted that the gods of Olympus weren't actually the creators of the universe, and believed that there was a deity "whose nature remains unknown". IIRC She was reacting to being introduced to the "New Gods" of New Genesis and Apokalips and wasn't impressed by their assumption of such a rank.

[flo_nelja]

A friend of mine says to me than even if gods don't manifest often in our universe, most wizards in history of occultism tend to consider them, and all sort of supernatural creatures, like the postman. As in, the main things which interests them is how much you have to pay to have them getting you what you need now.

[nyadnar17]

Am I the only the who is bothered by Christians using the "it true because I believe it" or "my faith is pure because I have no proof" lines. One of the things I have always found interesting about Christianity is that it claims to be true. True as in demonstratively, historically true.

It was my understanding that Christianity claimed that X event, happened at Y time in history and was witnessed by Z people. I further thought Christians claimed that if X event didn't happen at Y time and in the presence of Z people as the bible claimed then the whole faith is suspect?

I don't understand why claiming to believe in something even though you have no evidence or in spite of evidence to the contrary is something noble or something to be admired.

[icon_uk]

Events are one thing, beliefs are another. I'd say that there is a difference between for example, historically validated events and faith in the Dinvity of Christ. One can be proven empirically, the other can't.

Some varieties of Christianity take the Bible as absolutely literal from start to finish, others do not and accept that allegory and metaphor are quite acceptable interpretations (eg not all Christians are Creationists, rather a lot of us are happy to accept the Big Bang, Evolution and the like are what really happened)

Faith is tricky, faith is bloody hard a lot of the time. It's maintaining belief in something in the absence of proof, based entirely on trust. Some view it as a testament to the human spirit, some view it as outdated and perverse (in the frustrating sense, just ask Richard Dawkins about it sometime and stand well back when you do)

Is presenting ones faith as historically true unique to Christianity? I believe that Judaism and Islam, to name but two, also believe that.

[lieut_kettch]

I know there's a whole passel of theological discussion going on, but damn, all I can think of is, "I can totally get behind Herc/Amara."

If things with Mephisto don't work out, there's always the BearLion of Olympus!

[icon_uk]

I'd find Herc/Amara a tough one to get behind to be honest, the relative power imbalance inherent in him being in her religious pantheon and her... not, would not bode well IMHO. (And looking at Greek myth, such things have a lousy track record)

[dreadnought_red]

That's better than the first thing that popped into my head upon seeing the panel with Herc standing in the window, which was "boy, it's a good thing Herc didn't run around in a miniskirt back then."

[urkonn]

This is very interesting, the post and the discussion, and while reading it I kept thinking about that Captain America line from the Avengers movie: "There's only one god, ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."

Also made me think, if AvX brought Magma and Hercules to the same place would she fight him? This could have made a nice subplot to the story. Or it could be handled very badly.

[icon_uk]

Based on this (and ignoring the mindwarps Amara has been through since) I think Magma respects Hercules, and views him as a friend, but is aware that he has a somewhat human view on things, and is certainly not infallible. I think she'd feel badly about it, but would attempt to stop him if she felt he was in the wrong.

[md84]

I've never really understood why people argue so much about religion. Sooner or later everyone will find out who was right or wrong anyway.

[icon_uk]

A sort of metaphysical variation on "getting there is half the fun" perhaps? :)

[silverzeo]

Wish Herc has more moments like these.