Cass vs. Ollie: Round Two

[espanolbot]

With their secret mission in South America continuing, Cass recognises that she won't be able to get anything done with Ollie constantly sniping at her verbally and proclaiming who he can't work with a "murderer" (despite him having killed various people himself). So she decides to allow him to work his feelings out...




This over with, Ollie just proceeded to bug everyone else on the team instead of Cass, and generally act like an exaggerated version of himself. Including breaking into Wayne Manor after Bruce "died" and pinching things from his wine cellar, which I guess is fair enough, what with Bruce being Teetotal and all.

Also this series did also bring in Cass making her superhero team, the Network, though Dick and Barbara appeared to hijack after Cass'd done most of the legwork and it was promptly forgotten about after Battle of the Cowl was over. Which is kind of a shame, as it had Cass and Steph's first meeting since the latter heroine's "death" and could have been a chance for the pair to potentially star in a book together.

And then Cass was ejected from the book entirely, despite being the only one to hang around after RIP and their friendly OMAC exploding due to the Black Glove's tomfoolery, just so that Dan Didio wouldn't have to write her in "his" version of the team.

Oh well.

Comments

[icon_uk]

So were ever supposed to remotely be on Ollie's side at any point in his appearances here? I'm genuinely curious.

"Sanctimonious hypocritical pillock" is perhaps the politest term I can use for him here and I've already edited it twice because the terms that first occurred would probably have got me into trouble here.

[espanolbot]

When Kevin Smith wrote him it was more a case of him having poor impulse control and something of a chip on his shoulder... with other writers though, they just interpretted this as him being a raging jackass.

[icon_uk]

Personally, I think Kevin Smith was very much the odd one out then, because GA's prior appearances tended towards the sanctimonious too. (And I actively dislike Kevin Smith's run for many other reasons, but agree his Ollie was less irritating there than he often was)

Even as a kid pre-Crisis even, I though Green Arrow was an insufferable git and teeth grindingly sexist to boot, I could NEVER see what Black Canary found appealling about him. Yes he was ultimately heroic, but there's "heroic you can live with" and "heroic you still want to hurl out of a moving train".

[auggie18]

Kevin Smith's run was the one that brought back Stanley and his monster in a really horrific way, right?

[icon_uk]

That's the one, alas.

[gerardotejada]

I would disagree with that, I might well post this here, the begginer's guide to Green Arrow

Silver & Golden Age: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/91.php
Bronze Age: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/92.php
Under Grell: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/93.php
The Return: http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/94.php

[jaybee3]

I don't like Ollie Queen (much prefer Connor) and I'm not a fan of Kevin Smith's comic writing BUT I always did get the sense that of all the GA writers since Ollie's return (and IIRC one of the conditions Smith made to DC to get him to write GA was for Ollie to be brought back to life) was that he was the only one who actually LIKED Ollie Queen and didn't see him as a "raging jackass" to begin with. With Winick, Meltzler and Krul and the guy who ran GA/BC into the ground I always though they really, REALLY disliked Ollie and liked writing him as a jerk and a philanderer etc.

[mrstatham]

This. I'm not a big fan of Smith's other DC work - especially his Batman stuff - but I always got the feeling that Smith liked his character, and that part of the point of Smith's run was getting Ollie to recognise that, no, he hadn't always been a perfect guy and yet, one of the first things he went and did after the big Quiver story was save his son's life, even though he barely remembered Connor. And when it came to the big argument between him and Hawkman over Dinah, it was telling that Ollie wasn't the only one in the wrong. So.. Yeah. I really like Smith's run, and it's the only set of GA trades I own.

So naturally, it pissed me off when Winick went and had Ollie making the SAME old mistakes. It really pissed me off, because it suggested that a guy who had died and yet decided to come back couldn't change in the slightest. It was as bad as the decision that hey, all kids of supervillains are destined to become or already ARE supervillains. Meltzer - well, I thought his initial run complimented Smith's fairly well, but Identity Crisis went and pissed all over everyone, not just Ollie. And Krul got stuck with the scraps of idiocy that Winick, Kriesberg and Robinson had left in their wake, which included a ruined marriage - that could've really worked in they'd stuck with Smith's characterisation, a dead granddaughter (effectively), a ruined set of proteges and a destroyed city that loathed him for making a right but difficult choice.

I mean, what did Green Arrow do to deserve all that? Smith's writing made Ollie a character I could enjoy almost as much as Batman, so how did that go off the rails so badly?

[gerardotejada]

I found Meltzer a really great writer, as more of the critisism to IC was about what was writen and not how was writen. People was just pissed about IC apear in every place, as a stand alone book was alright, but messed to much with continuity. I was glad to know the Rape thing was not Meltzer's idea (I was upset when I found out they actually said "we need a rape").

I found Archer's Quest to be a model of how to write a Green Arrow's comic, play with continuity, seting the iconic traits of Ollie as an archetypical character and at the same time making him go forward.

Meltzer understood Smith's Take on Ollie better than anybody else, mixed that with silver age continuity and bang! Smith had already focused on some characteristics from Grell's Run. Winnick took a character that was perfect from all the views, you got childrens, you got family, you got adult themes, you got drama, Powerfull Women, redemtion, political coment, diversity and a good part of DCU street lore.

Similarly look at what happened to Selina, sha came from Gotham City Sirens.

Winnick touch kills.

[mrstatham]

Well, I still disagree when it comes to Identity Crisis, because I do think the book is a load of rubbish - and I do have issues with HOW it was written as opposed to what was written. But we can agree to disagree, I hope, because I am never going to change my opinion on the story and am happy that I don't own a copy any more. The rape isn't even my big issue with the story, grotesque as that scene is.

But again, Meltzer did fine when focusing on solo characters. With Identity Crisis and JLA, I found him utterly dull.

And as for Selina - I felt like she had been on something of a downward spiral since Brubaker left her book, so Winick isn't the only guilty party there. Gotham City Sirens was an awful book, which decided to revisit the stupid decision from Identity Crisis after Zatanna's role in that had been dealt with. And Dini NEVER explained exactly why that group of women were together. It flew in the face of existing stories. Dini did a good job with her elsewhere, but seriously, Winick is hardly the only offender when it comes to Catwoman.

[gerardotejada]

Yeah, I also found Meltzer went down. I kind of like the monologues in IC, the book is full of rubbish things, but I liked some writing and phrases. Meltzer kind of disapeared into his own dullness. I really liked Green Arrow in IC, this was one of this books that I feel Should be rewriten I would never allowed some obvious faults to be published. But I loved Meltzer's "style" when he writes Green Arrow, It was the logical writer for Green Arrow. His JLA is bad, I would say irrelevant more than dull, It gives nothing.

Yes, I dont understand Dini, He was writing amazing things for Streets of Gotham at the same time. But I dont know, Brubaker on Catwoman was the most important run of the character, kind of like Perez with WW. Hope Selina get what she deserve.