Support Cass

[flint_marko]

 

Don't know if this'll do anything, but a bunch of Cass fans are planning on buying a digital copy of Batgirl #1 at Comixology on the 31st (it's $1.99). There are more details here. 

Also, if you haven't bought a digital comic before, the quality of the pages is really good. 

Comments

[donnblake]

Interesting take, this. Normally the suggestion in this sort of scenario, would be that the merc is an arrogant prick- IE, he assumes that the person he's told to fight can't possibly be a threat, usually with sexist overtones. On the other hand, given that she's a- what, eight?- year old child doing a jigsaw puzzle what you get is a guy who is a mercenary and has probably done horrible things, but when told to attack a young child for easy money declines- and gets murdered for his trouble.

But how does this fit in with Cass not realizing how her violence=talking thing meant killing until that one businessman?

[flint_marko]

She just broke that guy's jaw, she didn't kill him. He shows up later in the present.

[nyadnar17]

Pretty much. I can't decide if this guy simply has high enough standards that he is not willing to murder a child for some sick old man or if he is too dumb to realize he lives in the DCU.

[crinos]

I recently discovered the joys of Conixology. I bought the Wild Cards comic, Dial H, and the Star Trek/ Dr. Who crossover comic.

I may be inclined to get on board with this.

[nate_abril96]

Personally, I always saw Cass as kind of an overrated fighter (and character), and have had a hard time believing that she can take down Batman. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, and say that she's one of the DCU's top fighters, but I never saw her as being a better fighter than Batman (unless someone can give me proof that shows otherwise).

[q99]

Cassandra fought Bruce twice (first time in sparing, it looked like he was winning... until he coughed up some blood, from a hit he didn't notice. Second time, he retreated a lot, not really deceive), and beat Shiva unaided twice, while Batman's only won with aid. She also does much better against Deathstroke than he does.

Basically, the move reading and weird brain? That's a superpower. It's not called one, but it really is.

[nate_abril96]

Okay, I guess that's enough proof that she's a better fighter than Bruce (she has superpowers, and also, it's been awhile since we seen a Bruce and Lady Shiva fight, so maybe he has improved over time; he is Batman after all). The thing that I wonder though is how is she a better fighter than say Ra's Al Ghul, who has been alive for centuries; and most likely knows every fighting style known to man and dolphin. This also applies to Batman.

[flint_marko]

What does this post have to do with Cass fighting Batman and Ra's al Ghul?

[nate_abril96]

This post has nothing to do with Cass fighting Batman or Ra's al Ghul. It's just a personal question that I have been wondering for a long time, so I thought: "What better place to ask it (and state my opinion on a character) than on a recent post about Cass?" Also, I would like to see Cass come back, along with: Wally West (the greatest Flash EVER, and the one I grew up with), Donna Troy, Jesse Quick, Stephanie Brown, Connor Hawke, Mia Dearden; Thunder and Lightning; Jade and Obsidian (who I could foresee coming back in Earth 2 through both in vitro and adoption); and many other characters who don't exist (or haven't appeared yet) because of the New 52.

[q99]

For Ra's, he's very experienced, but he's not as martial arts focused and talented as Bruce or Cass or Shiva or so on.

Due to her extreme intuitive aptitude for fighting, Cassandra can learned a new fighting style by seeing/facing it once (a lot like Marvel's Taskmaster), and Bruce has taught her every style he knows. She also has training from Shiva, Bronze Tiger, etc..

The League of Assassins called her the 'One who is All' because she was a repository of all their skill.

[full_metal_ox]

Cass is an extraordinarily specialized insect: she might be regarded as an RPG character whose player decided to put all their points into stupendous levels of Martial Arts, buying extra points with some catastrophic Disadvantages.

[q99]

Yea. One of the fun things about her is she's really awkward at a lot of other stuff.

[roguezombie]

I definitely think she's one of the best (along with Batman, Lady Shiva, Ra's al Ghul, and Richard Dragon), but I thought the whole ~who's the best fighter~ arguments that happen are rather tedious.

[mrstatham]

The arguments are definitely tedious, given I think any fight should be judged in context, but I still think Cass is way, way overrated as a fighter. Granted she's got a better explanation for it - kids being kids, they soak up more information and experiences than adults - but some of the stuff she was doing was still borderline impossible at times.

[auggie18]

Yeah, I remember there being a Superboy/Batgirl crossover in which she manages to slap Kon through his TK shield, something which was supposed to be pretty impossible at the time. I'm not sure how training since birth against human opponents makes you able to take down metas. (Although I remember Bruce trying to keep her away from metas being a thing.)

[mrstatham]

Bruce does keep her away from metas, yeah. There's the big incident in one of the first issues where she successfully goes up against one, from what I recall, but he's incredibly wary about it.

As it is, I guess it depends on the meta. Some use their skills/powers in an incredibly wasteful manner, so it's easier to exploit them in a fight. But ones like the Superboy thing? I understand it being for comedy purposes, but it doesn't work.

[shadur]

There's also a scene during Kicking Assassins where she's fighting against Slade and Ravager, and her internal monologue mentions that he's really hard to read because he has multiple "voices" -- presumably, he's ready to move in multiple directions at once at any time, so she has trouble picking out which one he's /actually/ going to take until he moves.

And later, when she's brainwashed and crazy during that period of her life we really prefer to forget, she almost manages to take down Supergirl by hiding in a lead-lined warehouse she then floods with infrared light and some kind of diamond dust tp disorient her as much as possible.

... Of course, that wasn't even the worst that was wrong with that particular book/scene...

[mrstatham]

Slade/Rose/Cass I could buy, because Johns set up Rose in such a manner that made sense, and there was an interesting enough parallel going on with Rose and Cass that made it worthwhile. I thought that was a pretty cool fight, and I pretty much loathe the decision to take her out of Bludhaven. That, frankly, was an interesting setup for her, even on the back of a turd like War Games.

And yeah.. Nuff said on the Supergirl issue. I never particularly minded her becoming what could be a villain, I'll be entirely honest, but the execution wasn't very morally grey, like the end of her series - with her thinking what she might want to be - it was just straight up villainy. And it stunk. Not only was it not her decision, but it was drugs and then she still turned out to be kind of bloodthirsty even after she was healed and.. Ugh. Again, does grey morality exist in the DCU?

[lieut_kettch]

... Of course, that wasn't even the worst that was wrong with that particular book/scene...

Kara suddenly sprouting stabbity crystals then?

[icon_uk]

It works if one considers that Kon's TTK field was partially under conscious (or subconscious) control (IIRC it used to fade completely if he was unconscious). If she moved faster than he was able to perceive it (and he lacked super senses) then I could see it slipping through his guard.

[nyadnar17]

I thought that was kind of the whole point. Each of Bruce's children exemplifies a certain aspect of himself. I thought Cass was suppose to be the child that exemplified Bruce's mastery of the martial arts?

[mrstatham]

I suppose I just never really found her all that compelling in terms of her fighting skills. Given superhero comics are primarily going to involve a lot of fights, just having a character dropped in - and Cass really did arrive largely fully-formed - to be the best fighter ever.. That never quite clicked with me. Just like I never quite liked the claims of Batman being an incredible fighter to top all others, and then usually the guy's just depicted as a standard brawler.

[silverhammerman]

Indeed. Something about that the whole idea just rubs me the wrong way. I think it's that she's introduced with her whole thing being "She's the best fighter!!1!!1!" and as silly as it is, it just doesn't feel like the character's earned it, we've never seen her be outclassed and have to get better in the present. Also I think her skills are way overplayed and I wish they'd just come out and call her superhuman, because shit can get silly at times.

[majingojira]

Or they need to introduce Ki into the DCU and jet get it over with. "You train enough martial arts, you GET super powers!"

[full_metal_ox]

Anyone remember the Landlady from Kung Fu Hustle?* That'd be a great foothold to handwave the Canary Cry as an esoteric Wuxia ability.

*For those who don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5lanjFi6qo

[mrstatham]

Only that would be an awesome concept. I don't know why there's such a division between martial arts and superpowers in comics, a lot of the time; Like.. Iron Fist and the assorted Immortal Weapons are the only ones I can think of who actually use that concept. There are probably tons more I'm not aware of, of course.

On that random train of thought - Given Marvel's work with Capcom, I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more comics crossovers with Udon, for instance. M Bison in particular would make a great villain to face off against the more street-based New Avengers.

[majingojira]

I think it's largely a western hangup. We lost the connection between martial arts training and anything mystical (if we had it at all) and thus a divide went up separating the two. Hell, the Immortal Weapons are basically patrons of mystical power rather than earning it through Hard Work and Guts (tm).

The only other major western Ki users are Lady Shiva and pretty much every one who uses pressure points already does so, but they refuse to acknowledge it for some reason.

That said, I'm now picturing the Immortal Weapons, Cap, Hawkeye, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Elektra and a few others being brought into a new tournament at Bison's behest.

[mrstatham]

I actually thought the Immortal Weapons were picked through a standard kind of trial/tournament-style affair, given we see that even in Brubaker and Fraction's run, there's a tournament to see who may go before the dragon, and that is considered the final test? So I thought that was the case for each one of the Immortal Weapons?

[majingojira]

They are, it's just they don't really get any chi-related powers from the training they appear to undergo, when they undergo training at all as in the case of several of them.

The Bride of 9 Spiders better described as "The Daughter of Atlach-Nacha". Dog Brother #1 is more like a mystical meme. Tiger's Beautiful Daughter is more a maternal lineage than anything else. Prince of Orphans? No one knows.

And I don't what to make of Fat Cobra's origin.

That Immortal Weapons mini was odd.

Still treated them better than currently ending "Defenders" series did.

[full_metal_ox]

My favorite response to this sort of interminable Fight Thread question came from Jet Li: when asked who would win if he and Jackie Chan were to fight, Li replied, "Ask the screenwriter."

[arilou_skiff]

My assumption was always that she'd hand Batman (or pretty much anyone else non-super) his backside in a straight fight, but that in most situations Bruce would have enough gadgets that he'd probably be the one left standing.

[grazzt]

Yeah, I always saw Batman as being below (if not too far away from) the line of fighters who were so good at martial arts that they can rely on them alone. He's actually a good high bar: if you can beat Batman in hand-to-hand without any enhancements, your martial arts prowess is pretty much superhuman.

[silverhammerman]

My view was always that Batman might not be the best technical fighter out there, since he spent his time abroad studying not just combat, but also detective work, interrogation, probably more than a little showmanship, etc, so he can't really compare to someone whose origin story has them fighting from pretty much day 1. That said I still think Batman is able to take on more skilled combatants just by virtue of being crazy, that is, he doesn't know when to quit, plays dirty, and does crazy stuff.
All this of course doesn't mean he can't still get his ass beat by Bronze Tiger (whatever happened to him?) but still, it's my personal take on the whole Batman as best fighter evar idea.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, I always saw Batman as not being the best at anything except perhaps being a detective, but he's the best comprehensive all rounder at EVERYTHING that there is going.

If he had focussed on any one area, he'd probably have exceeded anyone else at it, but he needs the more general skills to be Batman.

[big_daddy_d]

Why just Cass? How about Wally, Stephanie, Mia, Jade, Obsidian, and the JSA of Earth 1 while we're at it? Also why am I finding out about this now? O.O

[eyz]

Yeah :/
*misses the JSA alongside the JLA and Jade.. and Obsidian...and Kyle X Jade...and...and..*

[runespoor]

There was a campaign to bring back Steph a little while ago; I think the people who organized it are now looking to organize a bigger rally around, basically, everyone - from Steph to Wally to Cass to Donna to Wendy Harris. (I can't find it on tumblr, though, so maybe I'm confusing things; I think the organizer have a twitter, but I heard about it a lot on tumblr. I know in their past campaign, they sent tweets and FB messages to DC with the hashtags #wafflesforsteph and there was one for cass too but I don't remember it.)

Personally, I think focusing on one character at a time (or maybe a couple, or a group of related characters - for instance, Lian/Connor/Mia or Cass/Steph or Anissa/Grace or the JSA) would have more impact that All The Characters on one day.

On the other hand, no-one's stopping you from launching your own fan-campaign if you find this one disappointing.

[roguezombie]

I understand the point is to try and show that people are still interested in Cass. But I feel like the editors at DC already know this and are just refusing to use the character. So I think the only thing this really accomplishes is giving more money to DC.

[mrstatham]

Dan Didio was already incredibly blasé and pretty arrogant about the whole 'Waffles for Stephanie' thing that popped up in recent months, from what I remember reading on Bleeding Cool, but then it's increasingly evident that the guy increasingly loathes fan demand for particular characters. He also comes across as a complete liar when it came to Steph being in Smallville - as minor as that role appears to be.

He seems to operate under the notion that the seller is always right, and that we should buy what he tells us to, not we tell him what we want and THEN we'll buy it.

[espanolbot]

Didio is hilarious as he's both very opinionated as to what goes into comics, to the point where Mark Waid said that he would yell about how much he hated 52 because it was more creator controlled then he wished (he attempted to fix that with Countdown, and you know where THAT went), while at the same time he's more than willing to schill things he's mentioned he disliked in order to market them.

For example, he had a top ten DC stories list a while ago, and he mentioned 52 as being one that he actually liked, while at the same time inferred that he was involved in the creative process if not entirely responsible for chunks of them.

[mrstatham]

Well, obviously him shilling things on the company's behalf doesn't directly contradict his opinion, because I've seen plenty of creators sell something they're not entirely pleased with, but.. Yeah. Either it's hindsight and realising Countdown was an uncoordinated piece of shit that got far too bloated, or the guy's just talking through his butt when it comes to endorsing 52.

[msrobin]

Agreed. The powers that be know. They just don't give a crap.

No reason Cass couldn't be used in a team book, for instance. I'm sure a lot of fans would squee with delight. And what happened to her big year in 2010. Didio should just tell the truth. "We have nothing more to say about Cass Cain, she doesn't exist in the DCNu, and that will not change. We have other characters we prefer, and some characters were retconned. Cass Cain was one of those characters. She's gone. Sorry."

[blackruzsa]

Can I just say it's amusing the merc has a "MERC" tattoo on his arm?