The Fate of Selina Wayne in Worlds' Finest #0

[aeka]

So y'all remember how Paul Levitz originally fridged Selina Wayne to give her daughter Helena a reason to become the Huntress in 1977?

If not, no worries, I can quickly remind you.









But now the question is, how did he update her origin for the year 2012?

Well....Let's just say icon says all....





Basically the only thing that changed was that Earth-2 Selina's death was handled more tastelessly and gratuitously than last time, and Helena's reaction feels more forced and less organic this time around as well.

At least the first time Earth-2 Selina got fridged she STILL HAD AGENCY. Here she has none. She's quite literally went from being all cute and snarky with Baby Helena one minute, brutally dead in one panel the next. I'm not kidding. All the scans that have been posted on here are ALL that we see of Earth-2 Selina.

Needless to say I feel very hurt and offended as a huge Earth-2 Selina fan.

And then I had the luxury this morning of Kevin Maguire (the artist for this issue) responding back to me on Twitter with a shining example of exactly why this was even a problem in the first place.





Trigger Warning for Gore

Comments

[darkknightjrk]

On one hand, yeah, I don't know if Selina dying was quite necessary to make it work, but on the other, it fits the concept of this world, where the Three were forced to sacrifice everything, including their lives, to save their world from Steppenwolf and the Parademons (which sounds like a great name for a band, now that I think about it), and that Helena and Kara start to bond over mutual grief over mother figures.

And yeah, some of Helena's lines felt off there, but I put it to her in shock/grieving. I can't imagine anyone is at their most fluent. If anything, the most forced dialogue to me was at the end when Helena says that her and Kara will be "friends forever." I think it would have worked better if they just left her line at introducing herself, "Helena," and had a tag of "The Beginning."

As for Maguire's tweets...maybe I'm missing something, what exactly does that prove?

[aeka]

He disliked how I called attention to Selina's death scene in my review of this issue:

"First and foremost, lets go ahead and address the elephant in the room that was the brutal depiction of Selina's death. In huge contrast with the way the original pre-Crisis Earth-2 Selina died, this newer version was completely stripped of her agency. She quite literally went from being alive and cute with her daughter one minute to a bloodied mutilated corpse the next. It was absolutely disgusting to the point where it even reminded me of the way Lola's death was depicted in the second issue of the mainstream Catwoman's book. The fact that Earth-2 Lois was already dead prior to the start of this issue is in itself a mercy if this is what was in store for the Earth-2 women. In addition to Women in Refrigerators being an overused trope that cheapens and completely devalues the worth of women characters by reducing them to the status of plot devices that further the hero's story (in this case both Bruce and Helena), it unfortunately even reflects the overall bigger problem that's existing with DC at the moment. The fact that a disproportionate number of female characters (including iconic ones like Wonder Woman, Catwoman, and Lois Lane) have been benched, grossly objectified, fridged, and even relegated to the status of a male hero's personal booty call in itself speaks volumes about the gross misogyny that's prevailing throughout DC's offices right now. It quite literally doesn't get anymore transparent than this."

[espanolbot]

Helena seeing her mum's claws all covered in blood is meant to be an indicator that she put up a big fight before dying, maybe? *shrug*

[icon_uk]

I forget, in the original was she the Huntress before Selina died?

I prefer the idea that she had already become a hero before her mother's death, that speaks to responsibility, rather than simple revenge.

[kenn_el]

Yep. In the original, Hel is pretty much shielded form the Bat goings on, which only involved Bruce and Dick, Selina having been retired since marrying Bruce. Bruce was so despondent over his part in Selina's death that he retires the Bat, and with Dick already away, Hel takes it upon herself to become the Huntress in order o bring the guy responsible to justice.
I don't see the complaint about this issue in particular, as the Earth 2 concept (and the accompanying WF) is based upon the trinity being gone, and a new group more or less rising from the ash. We knew from issue 1 of Earth 2 that both Selina and Lois were deceased. I will accede the fact that we have seen Diana's body (and now Selina's), while there's soap opera precedent for Clark and/or Bruce surviving, but Selina in particular had a far better role in this version of Earth 2, having remained active until her death as Catwoman. Plus, we still don't know what Catwoman was on Earth 2. A villain who turned good, and a heroine from the get go? Lots of potential stories for Helena to impart as a part of her own past.

[aeka]

She became the Huntress following her mother's death in the original version of her origin.

While I like her already being a hero prior to Selina's death, I do think that her mother's death could've been handled much more gracefully than it actually was on this page. Compare this to the way Bruce dies in Earth-2 #1, and it's hard to overlook the gross misogyny behind the execution.

[jlbarnett]

I think that this overlooks the fact that in other issues we've seen that Selina is the one who made Helena Robin.

[aeka]

What issues do you speak of? This is the only issue where we've seen the Earth-2 version of Selina at all.

Also, Selina being the one who made Helena Robin does not change the fact that her death was depicted in the most brutalising way possible for nothing more than shock value, and to serve no other purpose than to provide Helena with the trauma necessary to further her story. This is, as I've stated, the very heart of the WiR trope.

[eyz]

Poor Selina :(

...
And poor Kevin Maguire, don't all go against the guy. I'm sure it also came mostly from Perez and/or DC editorial...

[aeka]

Except that Kevin explicitly owned up to the fact that he MADE the creative decision to make the scene as shocking as possible to emphasise that this was THE most traumatic event in young Helena's life. The only other person responsible for such a brutalising depiction of Earth-2 Selina is Paul Levitz who scripted the scene in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, Kevin Maguire is an all around nice guy, but he also unfortunately contributed to the bigger problem I discussed in my initial review.

[majingojira]

Wait, THAT constitutes a trigger warning for Gore? I must have watched to much horror/violent anime because that's PG-13 tame in my eyes.

Trigger Warning WIR would work much better. But that's just me.

[aeka]

A gaping hole in the middle of a woman's chest with large amounts of blood pouring from it is "PG-13 material?" I beg to differ.

[silverhammerman]

The art here really straddles the line between stylish and off model at times. It's weird. And that dialogue feels really unnatural when Helena sees her mom. I mean, that's just not how words flow.
Yeah though, both of these origin stories kind of suck in my opinion, but at least the old version was a little less gratuitous. I'll give the new one credit for Selina at least going down in action, rather than the old version's freezing up and dying via stray bullet.

[ilmari]

I have to admit that my first reaction on seeing the first new page here was to laugh - it just looks like Helena's saying, 'OHMYGODWHERE'STHEBATHROOM' while trying to restrain her full bladder.

The goofy facial expression certainly doesn't help the mood at all.

[arysteia]

For me the really defining (and offensive) part of WiR is the "to motivate a man" part of it. If Selina dying was solely to amp up *Bruce's* pain it would be a textbook example and totally vomit-inducing. Unnecessary and completely gratuitous.

The fact that it's *Helena's* origin story means I don't mind so much. I actually find it refreshing that her mother can *be* a motivator when all too often mothers go entirely unmentioned, as though heroes leap fully formed from their fathers' heads.

[turtlefu]

While I'm not denying Selina got fridged, the fact that Helena still has agency and the story is about HER and not Bruce sort of counts towards progress, maybe? We went from "Women die for the sake of men!" to "Women die for the sake of other women!". Both begin with the "women die" part but I find this easier to accept than if Helena were male.

[majingojira]

I long ago generalized the concept in my head as "One character dies/is injured/de-powered to motivate another and the event is forgotten beyond this one storyline otherwise" really solidifies when and where it can be used.

It's that lack of lasting effect that really grated my nerves about the concept and without that, the epithet lacks bite. This is why it doesn't apply to Uncle Ben or Bruce Wayne's parents very well in my head, and all "Good" examples of its use continue to use that death as a motivating factor for the character.

[big_daddy_d]

I've read the original Huntress origin story. Thought it was a good read, but sad. This time around...I am honestly not surprised.

[karunya]

What hurts me most deeply is that I can see my 11-year-old niece Emmy in Helena's face. They are similar looking, and I can't stand to look at this because I can't imagine having to help her thru the death of her mother. Losing her step-grandfather-by-marriage last spring devastated her.

Having such a young Helena was totally unneccessary, and the same loss could have been easily and effectively portrayed with a somewhat older Helena. Losing a parent is difficult at any age, but I'd rather see it happen to an adult daughter than a child who (to my eyes) seems to be about 12 years old.

[icon_uk]

I've been working on the assumption that Helena was about 15 or 16 in this; average Robin age. Oh, and currently DCnU STARTING age for a Robin... Sigh...

[theflames]

So originally Catwoman was pushed back into a life of crime, while here she dies while still being a hero.

I care for neither, but the latter beats the former, simply because of what it implies rather than how long it spent doing so.

More importantly. 'Misogynistic' - please, I'm begging you, words like racist, minsogynst, homophobe should ALWAYS be used carefully, if at the very least to preserve their importance.

And you labelling the creators as such just leaves me thinking you're being intentionally harsh... cruel. These words are brands in this world and shouldn't be lightly or for every situation.

I genuinely think you over reacted, and I genuinely think that this happens a lot these days when it comes to, from small buzz hate like the '90s' insult or 'woman in the fridge!' that we now get whenever ANY woman dies in a comic (see Young Avengers' Stature for that one)

This is not misogynistic.

Mod Note

[aeka]

This thread is frozen and under discussion by the mod team.

Mod Note

[aeka]

theflames the Women in Refrigerators trope is characterised by the brutal killing/raping/torturing/maiming/etc of a female character for the sole purpose of driving (usually the male) protagonist's story, and that is exactly what happened to Selina here with both Bruce and Helena being made to react to her death. Whatever you may think of the story in question, whatever you think of the meaning of the trope, this is classifiable as a WiR moment and members (such as myself) have a right to make our feelings known about this phenomenon without being told we're wrong, or that it doesn't matter. It is also worth noting that discussing a specific problematic plot device in writing, and subsequently calling a creator out on why it's problematic, is not the same as labelling them. Please learn the difference.

Let me remind you once again that scans_daily is a feminist community. Be advised that mansplaining and other dismissive behaviour--such as telling a female member she's "overreacting" for discussing a very real problem that negatively affects women--is a major violation our rules of conduct. Please refrain from doing this in future discussions.

[benicio127]

I read this and now that I see Kevin Maguire's comments... Frankly, it doesn't make sense to me. Helena was already in the crime fighting business. She didn't need the death of her mother to further fuel her. She was already doing this. Based on the relationship she had with her mother, it's very likely she would have honoured her while her mom was still alive.

And that we have another death of a major female character (Lois) that's essentially a fridging, without any agency and is done off-panel in the same book is quite a disturbing trend.

[aeka]

You do bring up a very good point about how unnecessary Selina's death was given that Helena was already active in the crime-fighting business and did not need the angst to further her story. I think this also ties to yet another disturbing trend that unless a female hero has a tragic backstory, she's less compelling as a character, "lacks depth," and can't therefore be relevant or taken seriously by readers. That, first off all, is very undermining of comic readers and it's still a cheap way to provide character growth.

If Levitz was still going to go with the "whole casualties during war" element that was established on Earth-2, it would not have been difficult to write Selina's send off more gracefully than is currently presented. I even pointed out to Maguire that the fact that Helena's father was depicted heroically sacrificing his life to save the world and was even given one last chance to tell Helena how much he loves her before blowing up the tower he was in makes the handling of Selina's death that much more offensive. The differences in how male and female deaths are depicted do not get any more transparent than this. The fact that it was possible to depict Selina's death in a more graceful manner and in a way that actually respected the character makes this scene completely inexcusable.

[reynard531]

I see this and I have to agree with some of the other posters. This seems...weird. From the looks of it, the modern story tried to emulate the original, with Catwoman dying early in Helena's life, which spurred her on in being the Huntress. And in the original, I think that worked. It was another way her reality differed, it set up a good conflict with Helena and when she met her Earth-1 mother, and it seemed to make sense.

And in general, it's not a bad idea to try to translate the original into this new Earth 2, not at all. But I don't think it works here because of the finer details. For one thing, the first Earth 2 wasn't invaded by Darkseid and had the DC Trinity killed off. And Helena wasn't already a crime fighter at the time her mother died.

It's not unusual for the writers to say Helena was already Robin when she was young. Given that her parents are Batman and Catwoman, she'd probably be born with the compulsion to do it, or want to emulate her parents and make them proud.

But, since Helena was already Robin here, and since the world got invaded with major damage, why do the deaths of her parents need to be separate? True, this new Helena didn't start out with the the deep, emotional pain that pushed her to fight crime, but she would have gotten that with the loss of her father before she got booted off Earth-2.

Personally, it would have been better to me that, if you wanted Selina to die, to have her die in that last battle with Darkseid's forces. Maybe she held off some parademons or something within the same general time period as Bruce died. And maybe they didn't have the panel space to put something like that when they showed Batman dying, but you could do it in flashback. It just seems that with the changes in the details, this scenario just doesn't work so well.