Date: 2012-10-25 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Dear God...I never thought Jason could get so kawaii as he did in the flashback issue of RH&TO, but holy SHIT was I wrong. O_O

Really, the Jason reveal is interesting now, because this is oddly something that makes less sense and yet even more sense in the New 52. It makes less sense in that Jason just helping the Bat-Fam out and fixing two reputations doesn't quite jibe with what we've been seeing in Outlaws. Yet, it makes more sense because in the New 52 the relationship between Jason and the other Robins is definitely less awkward and hateful--they don't like Jason's methods, but they can work with him when he goes under his rules.

Anyway, the Damian reveal is very interesting--definitely curious to see how this will connect to what happened in the #666 universe, and we'll finally see how it fits into this mega-story that Morrison's been plotting (especially since I thought that alternate future was wiped out at least twice in this story).

Date: 2012-10-25 03:47 pm (UTC)
darth_cloudo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darth_cloudo
Regarding the Jason kawaii, same here - I can't stop giggling at that panel. The first time I saw it, I had absolutely no idea who it is. I thought it might be bishonen Superman.

Date: 2012-10-26 12:00 am (UTC)
thanekos: Kouhei " Principal Garren " Hayami, the Libra Zodiarts, is bugged. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Funny thing is, Wingman == Superman was a theory people considered credible..

Date: 2012-10-26 12:34 pm (UTC)
darth_cloudo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darth_cloudo
Heh. I wonder what Damian's reaction would be if that were the case. Has he ever actually met Superman?

Date: 2012-10-25 04:03 am (UTC)
harpers_child: melaka fray reading from "Tales of the Slayers". (Default)
From: [personal profile] harpers_child
who the hell is that in the suit? because that isn't bruce wayne. bruce never gives up on his boys. bruce never lets anyone take his boys away from him. robins might leave the nest to stretch their wings, but they're bats as much as birds. and bruce sure as hell wouldn't tell one of his boys that it's the boy's responsibility for things that happen because of a villian. bull-fucking-shit. the bat protects his family.

Date: 2012-10-25 05:17 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Bruce also always has a cunning plan. And Talia can clearly hear everything he's saying all the time, so...

Date: 2012-10-25 06:54 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arysteia
I thought it was pretty clear that it's a double bluff, ie a con for Talia's benefit, such that Damian will be the double agent.

Date: 2012-10-25 04:19 am (UTC)
thefiretonight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thefiretonight
That Jason reveal just pissed me off. I'm going to pretend that this is separate from the DCnU so that I'll actually enjoy the other writers' takes on the Jason/Bruce dynamic before this was shoe horned in without any build up whatsoever.
Edited Date: 2012-10-25 04:21 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-25 04:44 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] whoha
There was build up to Jason Todd being wingman in the last volume before the relaunch. There was a panel showing that there was somebody new in the mantle that the rest of Inc couldn't know about.

Bam:http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Wingman.png

Date: 2012-10-25 05:56 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
It's part of what makes me like this; Morrison basically salvaged the pile of crap Battle for the Cowl was by implying that, on some level, Jason wanted to make Bruce proud and show he was worthy of the mantle; When that failed, he tries to show he can be better than Batman. All sons want to make their father proud, I suppose. Here, it's showing that Bruce, on some level, understands why Jason did what he did. Jason isn't just fixing one reputation - he's actually fixing two.

The only trouble is that Jason already has a anti-heroic role in the DCnU as opposed to a villainous one, so the impact of this is lessened, but I've pretty much considered Morrison's run seperate from the DCnU anyway.

Date: 2012-10-25 08:00 am (UTC)
magusfool: (Default)
From: [personal profile] magusfool
I actually find it amusing how Morrison gives exactly zero fucks about the reboot when it comes to Batman. "Guys, I was kind of in the middle of a big thing when you rebooted... so, I'm just gonna keep doing that." And DC is just, like, "Umm... Well... But... Y'see... *Sigh*... Fine..."

Date: 2012-10-25 12:23 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Pretty much. The only areas where he's really been dicked over are Barbara, Steph and Cass, all of whom (le gasp) had roles that seemed fairly important within the book. The horror DC must have felt at having more than two female characters in decent roles within the Bat-Family.

Date: 2012-10-25 12:48 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Which makes NO ruddy sense in context as the only time before that Wingman meetup we'd seen Jason and Bruce interact was "Under the Hood" and there was no reason that that would lead into this sort of a harmonious relationship.

Date: 2012-10-25 07:20 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I think this pretty much IS being treated as separate from the DCnU, and has been since the reboot.

Date: 2012-10-25 05:09 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I find it amusing that Morrison has Damian be horrified by the simple aspect of Batman allowing a murderer on his team after all the stuff Damian has pulled even in stories Morrison has written.

Date: 2012-10-25 05:59 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I suppose part of that is the fact Damien's ten, and despite his heritage, ten year olds aren't always known for making the best arguments. But yes, the Spook would love to have a word on hypocrisy there, Damien.

Date: 2012-10-26 03:20 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i would love for a Cass toon show exactly this

Damian: But Father! He's a MURDERER!
Ghost, Beheaded: Ummm excuse me?

Date: 2012-10-25 06:01 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Exactly - Damian is horrified that Jason gets accepted back into the fold after his multiple murders and misdemeanours, while all he has to do is behead one measly crime lord and suddenly it's "You are an undisciplined little MONSTER!".

Date: 2012-10-25 07:13 am (UTC)
ext_3679: (Default)
From: [identity profile] fiddlingfrog.livejournal.com
In Jason's reveal panel it kind of looks like he's holding the severed head of Judge Dredd.

Date: 2012-10-25 07:19 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"I AM THE LAW!"

>SLICE!<

"Not in Gotham City, old man"

Date: 2012-10-26 03:22 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
teeheeheee

Bruce: Damnit Jason! I know you meant well but you HAVE to stop doing that!

Jason: But But... YOU"RE the Law in Gotham.

Bruce: Yes, yes, but Jason really, you should let me handle these situations... Here's a 10, go buy yourself a milk shake and cool down.

Jason: YAY!

Date: 2012-10-25 07:38 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
So...hmm.. was that Merlyn aka "Black Arrow" in that first panel?
I mean, a simple classic looking Merlyn while G.A. looks nothing like his classic-self?

Date: 2012-10-25 10:23 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Wibbly-wobbly, rebooty-webooty!

Date: 2012-10-25 12:23 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Hey, wasn't Wingman's first-ever appearance in a story where Batman was trying to make Robin jealous by hanging with him all the time? Nice meta-textual referencing.

And also self-referencing. Morrison made Wingman a representation of the "Batman as Massive Arse" characterisation that had flooded stories such as "The OMAC Project", back in "The Island of Mister Mayhew". And more recently he made Jason Todd/Red Hood into a grotesque stereotype of vigilante killer heroes like the Punisher. So he's clearing two reputations AND sticking it to two character types he hates seeing in comics, all while writing his Batman-has-Weird-International-Adventures comic.

Date: 2012-10-25 12:27 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
The thing is, even Jason as the more superheroey-looking Red Hood seemed to me like Morrison was trying to make a point about Jason, in that it's never really been about Bruce; Sure, Jason hates the Joker, but he couldn't possibly hate Bruce. So the whole thing with Morrison's Red Hood just felt like this completely screwed up kid trying to show his father he could actually do something right, or better than him, to me. And it's ironic that Jason in particular was talking about the Red Hood as branding concept, I think, and using the internet for advertising and the like before Bruce did the Batman Inc thing.

Date: 2012-10-25 02:12 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Yet the whole ending of Winick's Red Hood mini-series depended on the theory that Jason DID hate Bruce (as did Talia) and they wanted to supplant him and replace him. Other writers have not played that part up (even in the atrocious Battle for the Cowl where it was Bruce's "death" that made Jason seem to go off the deep end) but at the same time I've seen people claim Winick is the definitive Jason writer (which I have never bought - Winick himself said he saw Jason as a villain full-stop and not a redeemable one in the manner of Morrison or Lobdell).

Date: 2012-10-25 02:53 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Except not many other Batman writers have really played with the idea that Talia hates Bruce, either. Even her current war against Bruce using Leviathan isn't really about hating him, it's more that they're... Ideological opposites, I guess?

And yeah, I like that Winnick brought Jase back, but the role he had him in? So standard and boring, because just like the Joker will never be able to make Batman cross that line, Jason won't either. Nothing can. I don't always respect Batman's no killing rule, because it's my perspective that there are distinct circumstances where I think a character deserves to die, but putting Jason in a role to try making Bruce feel guilty over Jason by having him be alive? Yeah... No. As much as Lobdell has his faults, I much prefer his take on Jason. Same goes for Morrison.

Date: 2012-10-25 03:49 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I still feel that Talia made a more interesting character as a foil for Dick, rather than Bruce.

There are many parallels between them; Both are the scions of extremely powerful, extremely controlling people.

Each has broken away in their own way, but they still have strong family ties (and in Dick's case shackles and gags, but enough about my headcanon) Dick will always come back if Bruce calls, Talia never really managed to get away from Talia, so both have complicated relationships with their father figures.

Talia can see Dick as an obstacle to her having a relationship with Bruce (Neither Bruce nor Dick trust her, but Dick doesn't even LIKE her and is quite open about it). Dick see's her as bad news for Bruce.

They clashed in the Tomasi Nightwing run and it was quite fun. giving Dick a foe with access to Al Ghul level resources and a femme fatale he wasn't actually interested in.

Date: 2012-10-26 03:51 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I liked Talia vs. Dick as well. The Damien/Dick relationship even added another element to it. See I can never buy Talia hating Bruce for any length of time, her life is so tied-up (in her mind) to his that even when Ra's tried to get her a replacement (like Bane, the man who broke the Bat so should have been acceptable) it doesn't really work. But Talia hating Dick and wanting him dead/out of the way? Yeah, I can totally buy that.

Date: 2012-10-25 01:47 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
I prefer this reveal:

[img]http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads//2012/10/tumblr_mcf38uOP1c1r31ibvo1_500.png[/img]

And in case this picture doesn't show up because I can't do the encoding, here's a link:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/10/25/friday-runaround-the-return-of-batcow/
Edited Date: 2012-10-25 01:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-25 03:42 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, that's the OTHER code type. We use pointy brackets rather than square brackets and use img and src="" html commands

So the code would look like

[img src="http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads//2012/10/tumblr_mcf38uOP1c1r31ibvo1_500.png"]

with pointy brackets.

Date: 2012-10-25 02:15 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
The interesting thing about the reveal is that Morrison seems to have planned it prior to the reboot when Jason was a much more villainous character who not only had issues with the BatFam but had tried to KILL them almost all of them at one point. Which would have made Damien's disbelief make a lot of sense. In the new 52, how much of what Jason did and didn't do has been left more amorphous.

Date: 2012-10-25 03:43 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yes, this would be more of a dramatic reveal pre DCnU... still nonsensical IMHO, but dramatic.

Date: 2012-10-25 03:48 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Damn! For a minute I thought they were getting rid of Damian but he'll be back.

Date: 2012-10-25 06:39 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Neat, I like Jason.
I enjoy this book too, but personally I'm really losing interest in the Leviathan story, I'm hanging on because I really like the art and I like how Morrison writes Batman, but I'm spectacularly uninterested in Leviathan. Maybe it would work for me as a series of smaller stories with Leviathan as the Big Bad, but with the series seeming to focus on a single conflict it just seems drawn out and unnecessary.
Looking forward to the next issue though, we'll get a break from Leviathan and get to get Morrison return to his Batman 666 setting, it'll be fun to see what Morrison does with a semi-dystopian future where he's nmot bound by canon. I've been antsy waiting for this one ever since the 3rd(?) issue got delayed and everything was pushed back a month, that was so annoying.
Edited Date: 2012-10-25 06:40 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-27 01:53 am (UTC)
aeka: (Huntress [whatevs]:)
From: [personal profile] aeka
I just read this story, and it did not make any sense. That's all I gotta say.

Date: 2012-10-28 06:26 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kingofmadcows
I don't know if anyone noticed but someone who looked a lot like Mad Dog, Cassandra Cain's half brother, appeared in this issue.

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