espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
The last bastion of the Old DCU, complete with certain folk who have vanished from the DCU.


Steph, Klarion and Cass (dressed as Jason for some reason) out trick or treating! :D
http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/34705658118/lilgotham

Date: 2012-10-31 06:08 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I don't know if she's dressed as Jason. Dustin N. has some other sketches of Cass in street clothes over at his DeviantArt account so I think he just likes drawing her that way.

A part of me is actually scared that this does big business and gets on Didio's radar and he shuts it down (or at least orders certain characters - I think we all know which ones - not to appear). I guess as long as this seems like a kiddie comic to the people who run it's OK - The Johnny DC Shazam series was very good and fun even while the Marvel Family was being ruined in the DCU and Tiny Titans seem to do whatever they wanted and had both Cass and Steph and even Kid Devil (who Didio once said would stay dead as long as he was at DC).

Date: 2012-10-31 06:55 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Dan Didio has never once struck me as either that naive or that vindictive. If it's popular and a critical hit, he hardly seems likely to take such ire as he might have out on a non-continuity title like that.

The man may make decisions that I don't agree with (and many of them), but he really does seem to love the medium of comics and is an enthusiastic spokesperson for the company he runs.

Date: 2012-10-31 09:16 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Well, there was the whole Stephwing debaticle.

Date: 2012-10-31 09:35 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Again, from a purely businesslike POV I can see his point there.

They are trying like crazy to impress the profile of the new DCU, and that means keeping their character array as focussed as possible.

Given it's history, Smallville is a potential gateway from TV viewers to become comic readers, this is important to DC.

Which female is most associated with Batman in the public consciousness? Sadly perhaps, NOT Stephanie Brown, but Barbara Gordon.

So if Batman is going to have a female partner, Babs is the logical choice, if you don't want to fragment and dilute the characters you are focussing on. If there had been time to change the art, I can imagine she would have been Batgirl rather than Nightwing.

Do I think it WORKS in this case? Not really, but I can see the logic.

Date: 2012-11-01 11:27 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
His argument there was still nonsense. If he wanted 'iconic' takes on the characters in Smallville and nothing but, then sure, Steph Brown certainly isn't the iconic Nightwing. But then, neither is Barbara Gordon.

As for there not being time to change the art, I have to call BS on that one; Jim Lee was able to do a quick turnaround on Hush when editorial couldn't make their minds up on whether Selina was going to learn Bruce's identity. He basically photoshopped a new head in there, and it was seamless. I see no reason to believe that if they wanted to, they couldn't have 'shopped in Batgirl gear onto Barbara. It's just lazy and even if it isn't Didio's intention, it just comes across as spiteful.

To say nothing of the fact that they didn't even get Miller to change his dialogue; There was nothing in there that even suggested Barbara.

Date: 2012-11-01 02:20 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: Sad Nightwing (Sad Nightwing)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I... I... I have no words...

Date: 2012-11-01 02:42 pm (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Wally :o)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
The strange thing, is in my version, the hair is black but the purple stripe is there. So I'm not sure who has the later version, and unfortunately I was never able to confirm the blonde version with my own eyes (if it wasn't edited prior to being put up for sale on Comixology).

Date: 2012-11-01 05:15 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Because of the way Comixology works, apparently some people had actually bought the issue, seen 'Steph' with blonde hair, gone away, come back after this story broke to check it out again, and her hair had actually been changed to black. And this was on 'copies' people actually owned.

Date: 2012-11-01 04:03 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Given what "significant story" they reference on the card, if that Heroclix sees a similar "modification" on the way to production, I'll bet good money that Grant Morrison would be on the first flight to New York with a cricket bat, a twitching eyelid, a throbbing forehead vein, and directions to Didio's home...

Date: 2012-10-31 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
This was adorably awesome. Best parts were the al Ghul's Halloween tradition and Professor Bats. :'D

Date: 2012-10-31 11:36 pm (UTC)
b_dangerous: "That's Nice." (Default)
From: [personal profile] b_dangerous
Loooved this comic. I highly encourage people to get it. Well worth the dollar. :D

Date: 2012-11-01 12:44 am (UTC)
superfangirl1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superfangirl1
I need to get this and love the jacket.

Date: 2012-11-01 01:06 am (UTC)
thespis: ([vmars] facepalm)
From: [personal profile] thespis
And even this, even this cute little cameo, DC couldn't allow to go past without first recolouring Steph's hair (see the page with the original colouring here). Whatthefuck. Swear to god, DC's vendetta against this character has gone from being an insult to an utter joke.

Date: 2012-11-01 01:11 am (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Default)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
What is this, I don't even...

Date: 2012-11-01 02:42 am (UTC)
thespis: ([batgirl] steph is amazing)
From: [personal profile] thespis
From what I'm hearing, the recolour was apparently done after the issue was made available on Comixology, too. So when people bought the issue, Steph was blonde, then when they went to reread it her hair was suddenly black.

It's like DC is going out of their way to shit all over the joy. We can't even get a cute little shoutout to Steph without some asshole sticking their head in to remind us, "Yeah, but that's not really Stephanie Brown."

It just... it infuriates me, because Li'l Gotham was so sweet and adorable and I really enjoyed it when I read it. And seeing Steph and Klarion marching arm-in-arm in amongst all the trick-or-treaters, that made me smile. It didn't matter to me whether they were actually Steph and Klarion, enjoying the fact that they could walk down the street in costume without attracting any strange glances, or whether they were just a pair of kids dressing up as their favourite heroes. I just liked seeing a shout-out to one of my favourite characters, and I enjoyed the little callback to Steph and Klarion's Valentine's Day hijinks in BQM's Batgirl. It made me happy. And then they had to go and sour it.

That little cameo wasn't doing anybody any harm. And still, DC just has to come in and slap on a shoddy recolour job, because apparently Stephanie Brown isn't allowed to appear in any comic ever.

Date: 2012-11-01 04:19 am (UTC)
rdfox: Alfred Pennyworth facepalming at something horribly stupid (facepalm)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
...right. Dankor, this one's for you:



I swear, if YJ "Before the Dawn" is re-edited before it airs in January...

Date: 2012-11-01 04:57 am (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Default)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
Not to impugn the integrity of anyone at DC's motives, but it does make me question the motives of *whoever* makes these calls.

Because, from a marketing standpoint--okay, I'll bite. They want to focus their energy on Babs!Batgirl. I don't agree with it (I liked Barbara as Oracle), but that's the direction they're taking, so fine. But I'm not seeing any monetary benefit that comes from what appears to be (whether or not it is in actuality) a conscious attempt to alienate a portion of their fan base. If it's true that they recolored Steph's hair just to remove the easter egg shout-out to Steph fans (and, from what little I know about the situation, that's what it looks like) then someone explain to me what is the point if not to alienate said fans? Because there's certainly no risk that readers are going to see that and go "Wait! But Barbara Gordon...?"

It just brings to mind what I read as Didio's justification for the absence of Stephanie, Cass, Wally, and Donna. Without going back and rereading it, I believe his justification for not bringing in Wally is that, if they did, then people would be demanding to know when he'd become the Flash. That excuse falls flat, to me; isn't that what we're already demanding? But short of that, it wouldn't take much to get us at least somewhat on-board. I have refused to buy any Flash comics until Wally shows up (and I've since stopped buying most new DC titles, save Young Justice, and I did buy this issue of Li'l Gotham). Notice I didn't say I refuse to buy any issues *until Wally becomes Flash*, I said until his existence is acknowledged, and in some way (however peripheral) worked into the DC Universe.

Because all I want is some confirmation that Wally exists in this new universe. At this point I don't care if he shows up and has never been the Flash, never been Kid Flash, never been a superhero of any sort. Let me amend that--I do care, but I will be elated just to see the character in some way, shape, or form. And as much as I do not like the direction DC is taking, I'll probably buy every issue where he shows up, no matter how briefly. Because Wally is "that character" to me, the one I've grown irrationally attached to, the one who, every time I see his Young Justice action figure in the discount bin, I have to fight the urge to buy it, even though I already have one.

I think a lot of us have a character like that. And for those of us who happen to be unlucky enough to have attached ourselves to Wally, Cass, Steph, or Donna, we'd be happy to see these characters in any form, and we'd throw our money at any comic that included them. And they can 100% be folded into this universe, even if it takes throwing out their entire spandexed history.

Yes, there will be those who won't be happy until or unless Stephanie took over as Batgirl again, which is understandable. I certainly won't be 100% satisfied until Wally is the Flash again. But if he existed at all, I'd probably by 60-80% satisfied, and that's more than enough to get my hard-earned dollars. And I don't think I'm the only one. If DC is looking to increase their sales, I know a way they could do it with only minimal effort. Just sayin'.

Date: 2012-11-01 11:39 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
"Yes, there will be those who won't be happy until or unless Stephanie took over as Batgirl again, which is understandable. I certainly won't be 100% satisfied until Wally is the Flash again. But if he existed at all, I'd probably by 60-80% satisfied, and that's more than enough to get my hard-earned dollars."

Pretty much this. I would love it if Steph was Batgirl again, but I'm not so stupid as to think it'll actually happen in the next ten years, probably even more, but.. Just some acknowledgement would be nice. Didio comes out with this nonsense about how he wants to 'make sure each character's story matters' and that they're given a great introduction, but it's absolute nonsense; We have the four male Robins and yet I've not seen one story that really justifies needing all of them. We have people like Rob Liefeld fucking up what could be a fantastic character like Lobo. We have characters like Bane being used with little or no fanfare, when realistically, Bane being one of the lead rogues in a book should have made the comic one of the biggest of the summer, given his big screen appearance.

It's a clusterfuck, and I have no reason to not look at Dan Didio as complete and utter liar. But as you say, it's not that I want Steph in the Batgirl role again. It would just be nice to have her around - and even Cass; I don't have as much attachment to Cass as I do Steph, but Cass' book was one of the first I started reading when getting into comics properly, so I understand the want for her to be around. But we can't have even that.

Date: 2012-11-01 02:56 pm (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Mario and Mario)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
I do think the greatest counter-point to any claims of wanting to keep characters iconic, or make sure that characters' stories matter, is the Batfamily continuity. Because you're right, it hardly makes sense in this new, shortened continuity, for there to have been four Robins. If they wanted iconic, I would think they would have gone with Dick (for obvious reasons) or Tim (whose image is the most widespread on notebooks, stickers, etc; his red costume is everywhere).

I happen to like all four Robins, and I wouldn't wish any of them out of existence, but it doesn't make sense, and clearly they didn't plan out all the Robins' history to make them "meaningful" (as we've seen with Tim). I'm sure their argument would be something along the lines of Batman being a huge seller and not wanting to mess with it, and YET, the claim the entire time was to want new readers. Batman, being one of the 2-3 best known superheroes, likely acts as a gateway to the DC comics universe for many would-be readers. By that reasoning, it should have been the first to have its continuity streamlined and simplified.

But instead I'm supposed to believe that in five years, Batman's had four Robins (but only one Batgirl, of course), died, Dick's picked up the mantle, then returned to life? The mind boggles.

Date: 2012-11-01 05:38 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Exactly. The reboot is just incredibly aggravating because they clearly haven't thought this out as thoroughly as they should. It reeks of favouritism when stuff like Green Lantern and Batman isn't reset as heavily as the other stuff, and it just makes everything a mess because they're implying nearly all this history still happened to Batman, and yet it's got to fit this crunched timeline, which is just ridiculous. That's like.. Knightfall, No Man's Land, War Games, Final Crisis/RIP and so on. I don't care how good Bruce Wayne's brain is, that would drive anyone insane.

So.. Yeah. The mind boggles. We're expected to believe Batman took in four kids in just about five years, but more than one girl? EW NO GET THOSE GROSS CASS AND STEPH COOTIES AWAY!!!

Date: 2012-11-01 03:26 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
The 4 Robins thing galls me the most. So they want us to believe that within the limited timelime of the DCNU Bruce took in four nearly identical black-haired blue-eyed boys one at a time- all of whom get their own TITLE right off the bat. Yet Cassandra Cain (the most successful Asian heroine in the company's history and who had gotten a non-Batgirl moniker before the reboot) and Stephanie Brown (whose time as Robin and Batgirl could easily be explained away and she could still be Spoiler) apparently not only don't exist but when the people writing the Bat-books (Snyder, Morrison, Simone and Higgins) actually want to use them they are refused. It makes no sense artistically or financially (I will never buy the idea that Jason Todd - who readers voted to kill off - has a bigger fanbase than Cass or Steph).

If they had gotten rid of Todd and Drake (and said Damien took over from Dick as Robin) from continuity, I could buy them getting rid of Cass and Steph but otherwise? No.

Date: 2012-11-01 05:28 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Simply put, at this time? DC are telling us what we want. That's basically what it is. They're trying to tell us what we should want. It works in some cases, sure (Becky Cloonan doing Batman and the Swamp Thing Annual? Yes please!), but when it comes to stuff like character choices, DC are being disastrously short-sighted. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to Steph and Cass - even if I don't quite agree with removing Steph's time as Batgirl or Robin. Why they need to be removed given the absolutely pathetic and ham-fisted attempts at shoehorning the Robins in is beyond me.

I also don't entirely understand the need to cram everything into five years, and to make every hero under the age of about twenty five, but that might just be my personal feelings coming into play, given at twenty six, I've already started encountering some weirdly ageist stuff when it comes to job interviews and applications.

Date: 2012-11-01 05:41 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
The thing about removing Steph's time as Robin and Batgirl I just meant that it you HAD to have the idea that Babs was the one and only ever Batgirl (which is what Didio would have us believe) than you can always say Steph was always Spoiler and Cass was always Black Bat and keep much of their backstory intact (particularly with their father's - Steph's with the Cluemaster and Cass with Cain). But we can't even have that. The idea there were 4 Robins however in 5 year - DC thinks that makes sense (even if they are walking away from that timeline now - in the beginning they did think it made sense).

And ageism is the worst thing about this reboot. No doubt. There have been isolated issues on how women have been treated in some books but that has nothing to the overall ageism (made largely by middle-aged editors) which tells us that no one can be over 35, everybody should have perfect bodies (i.e. the Amanda Waller effect) and look like models and even in an alternate Earth characters like Jay Garrick and Alan Scott have to be made 20-something (while their children are retconned away). It's insulting.

Date: 2012-11-01 06:37 pm (UTC)
onceaskrull: (Tim =_=)
From: [personal profile] onceaskrull
THANK you. I have a really time reconciling in my head that in this continuity Bruce Wayne is 25? 30? I'm not really sure. In my head-canon, he always hovers around 35ish. And don't get me started on Ollie pre/post reboot.

It just reminds me of when I was younger, my range of what I saw as "interesting" characters was pretty much limited to those in their teens and early twenties. Those were the characters I took up when I role-played in internet chat rooms, and all the original characters I created were inevitably in that same age range.

Now I see how limited that point of view was. That some seem to think that the "Big Three" have to be in their twenties to be relevant or interesting just blows my mind. Doubly so because the people making these decisions are not 15-16-year-olds like I am; instead, they're largely in their 30s, 40s, and so on themselves.

And this idea, that Superman must be the first hero and must still be in the twenties has seriously damaged what I see as one of the major strengths about DC: its depth and sense of history. We know that progress in mainstream comics is limited or non-existent, most major changes get undone, but with DC there was at least the illusion of the passage of time, from the JSA to the JLA, multiple incarnations of Teen Titans, sidekicks growing up to become their own heroes (Dick) or take up legacy mantles (Wally). Yes it was confusing, but as a relatively recent DC comics reader (only started 5 years ago or so), I can say that it's entirely possible to get the general idea, and learn as you go.

For the past..ten(ish) years, DC has slowly walked back all that progress, bringing back Hal and Barry and so on. And then, with the reboot, they obliterated large swaths of the universe's history, kicked the JSA out of mainstream continuity, and shortened the timeline so that the age range of characters we're supposed to care about stops at 30. It's a shame, it really is.

Date: 2012-11-01 08:49 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
Wo...woaHHH!!! AGAIN??? Someone throw out Didio out of those offices!!

Date: 2012-11-01 11:31 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
From what I heard, that was because it's meant to be a Halloween issue. All the characters in that spread aren't meant to be the actual characters, but children and youngsters going out for their trick or treating rounds as versions of the characters. Damian beats up a set of people dressed as the Joker and others, beforehand.

It still strikes me as really fishy, of course, that it was changed at the last minute, but I still buy that argument more than the complete and utter bullshit that occurred with Smallville.

Date: 2012-11-01 12:52 pm (UTC)
thespis: ([batgirl] steph is amazing)
From: [personal profile] thespis
Yeah, I... really don't buy that. I've read the issue and there's nothing confusing about the Steph cameo. It's a crowd of trick-or-treaters in superhero costumes, and in amongst them happen to be two figures who look like Steph and Klarion. Whether or not they're actually those characters or just a couple of people in costume really doesn't matter, it has no bearing on the story, and the idea that after the issue was released somebody would suddenly panic and think, "Oh no, what if people don't understand that the Batgirl in the crowd is a cosplayer?! We must rectify this immediately!!" seems... pretty unlikely to me.

I don't know. It just flat-out doesn't make sense to me. There's no logical reason for changing the colouring, and in the context of all the other crap DC's pulled on Steph, I can't help but feel this is pretty suss.

Date: 2012-11-01 01:28 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
No, I absolutely agree. At this point, though, DC could do the most perfectly innocent thing or whatever when it comes to Steph and I'd think something was going on. They could announce her in a new book or whatever and all those copies could end up being accidentally water-damaged in perfectly innocent circumstances, and I'd still manage to concoct some theory about Dan Didio deliberately breaking a warehouse roof so it happens on purpose.

At this point, Didio's the guy who cried wolf, to me.

Date: 2012-11-01 02:12 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Did you hear dc removed stephanie... I don't want to say I told you... But after smallville....
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/11/01/dc-acts-to-remove-rogue-stephanie-brown-appearance-in-lil-gotham/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Date: 2012-11-01 02:15 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Ah, never mind...

Date: 2012-11-01 05:20 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Talk about salt in the wound, duder!

That said, I absolutely predicted this too, the second DC put out the announcement on their blog. My comment under my actual name, via facebook, has about forty or fifty likes and jokes about how Didio would spot her and order the whole series cancelled.

After this? I totally have a queasy feeling in my gut.

Date: 2012-11-02 01:06 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
Last bastion indeed. *sob*

Date: 2012-11-02 04:02 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
I was somewhat disappointed to discover they weren't really characters in the story, they were just part of a crowd shot.

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