espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Don't worry, there is actually one involving Cass and Steph in the pipeline.

By Me

Reaction to this trailer and the Oz franchise in general.

There's also the thing about how a series that has primarily female characters in getting a movie where they have to saved by a dude, but since this is technically meant to be a prequel it possibly can slide? I don't know.

Also, Mila Kunis' hat is awesome.

Date: 2012-11-16 08:56 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
There's also the thing about how a series that has primarily female characters in getting a movie where they have to saved by a dude, but since this is technically meant to be a prequel it possibly can slide? I don't know.

looks like Glinda gets in on the saving too, so it could just be Oz helps them realize they can do it themselves... then there is that whole dictatorship... but that is in the Wicked Books, not the original Oz books... which surprisingly i think all had female leads...

Date: 2012-11-16 10:49 pm (UTC)
robinzegblu: A robot with tank treads instead of legs. (Default)
From: [personal profile] robinzegblu
Does Tip from Marvelous Land of Oz count as a female lead?

Date: 2012-11-17 02:10 am (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
In, the Patchwork Girl of Oz munchkin boy Ojo the Unlucky is the main character, the Tin Woodman of Oz was actually about Nick Chopper and Rinkitink in Oz (which was NOT originally written as an Oz book) had a male lead but in all the book save the first, women ruled Oz and set the rules (heck, Scarecrow's rule was overturned by Jinjur and her all-girl army). You never see that in any Oz adaption (even the so-called "dark" versions of Oz).

Date: 2012-11-16 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
But he doesn't save them, does he? He just holds the fort until Dorothy comes along to take care of the problem once and for all.

Date: 2012-11-16 09:10 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I'm still waiting for an adaption of the books that spotlight Ozma and/or Glinda aka the two people who really run everything. Baum's mother-in-law was suffragette Matilda Gage and he was really forward thinking on female issues (most of his lead characters - Ozma, Dorothy, Trot and Betsy Bobbin are little girls) the jab at the feminist movement with Jinjur and her army aside.

Date: 2012-11-16 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
As I remember the Oz books, the wizard didn't particularly save anyone. He set himself up as a sort of benevolent tyrant, built the not-so-emerald city, but ultimately failed to defeat either of the Wicked Witches (though he apparently did pose enough of a threat to compel the WWotW to summon her Flying Monkeys which was a big deal since she could only do it three times, total).

Date: 2012-11-16 09:25 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
There's also the thing about how a series that has primarily female characters in getting a movie where they have to saved by a dude, but since this is technically meant to be a prequel it possibly can slide?
No, fuck them.

Date: 2012-11-16 10:18 pm (UTC)
drexer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drexer
Quite a little bit of this, really.

Specially as lately this setup of one male saving all of those princesses only reminds me of the Nice King. Which is a pretty great deconstruction of the inherent problems with the setup.

Date: 2012-11-16 10:36 pm (UTC)
drexer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drexer
But even so, representing a stalemate of evil conflict which can only be resolved by a man falling from the sky... is there any way to write this, in the current social world, which does not have serious flaws?

Date: 2012-11-17 11:19 am (UTC)
magus_69: (pic#370600)
From: [personal profile] magus_69
Personally, I think I see where this is going. In short: the prophecy is real, which is why the Witches get all deferential, but it refers to Dorothy... whom we know isn't due to arrive for at least twenty years. The lines about a great man and a powerful wizard are intended as misdirection for the audience, and they stem from the prophecy being vaguely worded. My suspicion is that the prophecy says something about the witch-killer being dropped down in Oz from Kansas (explicitly namedropped) after a powerful storm. The bits about the saviour being a powerful wizard are reasoned guesses on the part of the populace, and as for the great man line: if he's going to take down the witch, he has to be a great man, right?

Date: 2012-11-16 11:56 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
I think I've reach the point where I have absolutely no tolerance for all the ways the movie industry will deprotagonise, dismiss, erase, and undermine female characters (not to mention characters of color of any genders). Sexual objectification, I can deal with as long as it respects agency and PoV and competence. But making a franchise that is all about female protagonists into yet another white male Chosen One because we don't have enough of them? Fuck that shit. Fuck them.

Date: 2012-11-17 02:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
Wow way to totally jump to the worst conclusion. Disgust on first sight.

Date: 2012-11-18 04:52 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
... he doesn't save them though... Dorothy does. That's how the story goes, you know that right? Yeah, he *helps* them, but he doesn't actually beat the witch, Dorothy, the girl, does.

Date: 2012-11-18 11:44 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
It doesn't matter. Dorothy won't show up in this movie, will she? So the guy, whether hero or anti hero, is still the one who gets the be the protagonist about the movie, which will be all about him and his journey, thus reinforcing the trend of only white male getting to be heroes of fantasy movies of that kind.

Date: 2012-11-19 03:52 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Um, yes it does matter - when it's a series, with an expanded universe; it matters. The Oz books have a decent balance of male/female protagonists, in this story, it's a male, Dorothy however, FINISHES what HE started.

What would you have them do? Cut and hash the movie so Dorothy comes in half way and saves the day? Or we could have the story as intended.

There are many other social issues with the story, this isn't really one of them, it doesn't reinforce the trend your talking of, because this *series* is essentially against that, with Dorothy saving the day, in her story etc. Along with Ozma and other females stories. His, is a steeping stone in a much larger universe, it's perfectly fine for him to champion this movie, since this is his backstory, essentially.

Date: 2012-11-19 06:20 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Do they already plan on making other films after this one? If so, you're right, my bad. If not, it's not series. It's an adaptation of a book of series or a movie inspired by a series of book (I'm not sure if there is a specific book they are basing this on?) . But the movie will, to most of the audience, stand for itself, and the focus it will have will also stand for itself.

Date: 2012-11-19 10:18 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Well, in honesty - I can't awnser that question. I know all there source material stems from a series, so I'm making a logical guess (since I haven't looked into it.)

Let's say it *is* made to be standalone. It's still, in nearly all senses, a prequel, it's being marketed of sorts, since the mass audience doesn't really know what's going on without being told 'This is about the wizard at the end of the book/film, y'know, Oz.' So at the very least, the damage isn't being done here, people know that Dorothy is coming after, and finishing the job. The man isn't getting all the credit.

This only stands, of course, if they don't completely bastardise the ending.

On a lighter note; They made the witch look really menacing in the trailer, for that, I'm happy.

Date: 2012-11-17 01:16 am (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
> There's also the thing about how a series that has primarily female characters in getting a movie where they have to saved by a dude

augh, don't remind me of the Coraline decayed adaptation.

Date: 2012-11-17 12:44 pm (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
Is this about the inclusion of Wyborne? I know he was a weird addition, but I never got the feeling that he stole the "character focus" spot light from the title character. The Coraline movie was 100% Coraline's movie and she never stooped as low as these female Oz characters.

Date: 2012-11-17 01:38 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: manga-style picture of a female-identified person with long hair, face not drawn, putting on a Japanese fox-spirit max (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
99%. And the 1% missing happens to be the very end, when the boy saves her literally like a white knight, riding and all, from the hand. Which she originally had no trouble disposing of herself. The tacked-on, disconnected feel is exactly what bothers me; it's as if they thought, "well, we can't have a cartoon with a damsel who isn't in distress somewhere, can we?"

Date: 2012-11-17 02:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
It was more like the fact that she made a friend than that she needed a man to me.

Date: 2012-11-18 01:36 pm (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
While certainly a moment that would have been better suited if it followed how the book dealt with it, I give that moment a pass for two reasons.

1. He doesn't act like a white knight who smirks at danger when the job is over with. They both come out of this exhausted and Coraline is the one who finishes the job by tossing it down the well. They were more working together than him coming in to solve her problems.

2. This one's important. They don't get romantic. If you want a better example of a female character who is tough, studies hard and actually works hard to achieve her dreams but is totally undercut by the male character that she falls in love with at the end, watch "How to Train Your Dragon". I have never been more offended by an attempt to portray strong capable female character in a story as Astrid was. It doesn't matter if you're cheated out of a title you rightfully worked for, it doesn't matter if you are thrown out of a fight where you are reduced to the fretting spectator, all that matters to you is that you now have a boyfriend!

Date: 2012-11-17 03:26 am (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
What about the animated OZ movie? Next year it kinda like those 2 Snowwhite movies that were out this year...

Date: 2012-11-17 05:21 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Empress)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
So Oz is sort of like Rann, eh?

Date: 2012-11-17 05:52 am (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
Erm...didn't the Wizard also like take baby Ozma, the proper heir to the throne, to a witch to be hidden/kept out of the way?

I seem to recall that not really being a good thing. Or am I totally mis-remembering the Oz books?

Date: 2012-11-17 11:28 am (UTC)
magus_69: (pic#370600)
From: [personal profile] magus_69
He did indeed. The Wizard isn't exactly a good guy at this stage in his life, at least in the books.

Date: 2012-11-17 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
I think that was retconned as the bad witches doing it and lying in Ozma of Oz. That was because he wanted to reintroduce the character and make him a real wizard which he did.

Date: 2012-11-17 12:37 pm (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
"but since this is technically meant to be a prequel it possibly can slide? I don't know."

Normally I would let the prequel bit slide, but here's the problem. It looks and feels like it's a straight up remake of the original movie. Someone from a black and white Kansas gets swirled up by a tornado, lands in the colorful world of Oz and has to save it from the Wicked Witch. Normally a good prequel would try to tell a different story, but here? It looks like everyone involved in making this film wanted to make their own Wizard of Oz movie and decided that the number one problem with most of the stories is that they had a female lead in them. To make matters worse, the dialogue isn't even bothering to be subtle on how everything revolves around the "man".

Oz: "Kansas is full of good men. I don't want to be a good man. I want to be a great one!"
Theodora: This is Oz. *Dances romantically and kisses Oz*
Evanora: *To Oz* I'm here to serve you.
Glinda: I've waited for you to come set things right.
Evanora: Your magic is the only thing strong enough to save us all.
Doll: Help! Please! *Oz catches her*
Theodora: Are you the great man we've been waiting for?

Because if women aren't the evil foes who must be stopped, they're the super powerful folk who can't do crap unless they have a 'man' do it for them. This movie sucks.

Date: 2012-11-17 01:02 pm (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
Was this nonmagical girl attached to a prophecy? Did she have a higher midi-chlorian count than Yoda?

Date: 2012-11-18 04:55 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Hehehe, that makes the story sound so funny...

Date: 2012-11-17 02:32 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
You mean the girl who fell from the sky killing the evil witch who was dressed as a witch? (In white) The girl that the good witch of the north was told by magical by her own spell to send to the wizard? Then the good witch gave her both her strongest protection spell and the evil witches most potent magical items? The girl who gained two unkillable bodyguards by kindness alone? And when a lion attacked them slapped it for being a bully then gained it's loyalty? I could go on but I'm really sick of people taking the half baked dark conspircies about the MOVIE and applying it to the book when they don't make any sense for the book!

You know what the prevaling theroy among book fans is? That Dorathy is in a powerful witch and that she was sent to Oz because she belongs there. Which is why she goes back to stay in latter books.

Princess Dorathy Gale of Oz is a fantastic fantasy heroine and one of my favorites. Don't call her a patsy.

Date: 2012-11-17 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
I can see this discussion is filled with people who've never read the books yet have read various online humor sites that like to point out plotholes in famous movies. If you can't see that this entire trailer is setting up the wizard for a major fall then your blind. As a fan of the books this looks very acurate and I cannot wait to see O.Z.P.I.N.H.E.A.D.'s story.


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