Date: 2012-12-22 08:39 pm (UTC)
invadertoph: (Default)
From: [personal profile] invadertoph
This was adorable. It's a little weird seeing Captain America so nice. And I think he has a thing for Ms. Marvel or are my shipping goggles acting up again?

Date: 2012-12-23 12:30 am (UTC)
morwen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morwen
Considering the appalling thing that they'll let happen to Carol in 6 issues then I'd prefer to not read anything like that into it.

Date: 2012-12-23 12:44 pm (UTC)
invadertoph: (Default)
From: [personal profile] invadertoph
Oh dear, what happened? Stuffed in the fridge or something?

Date: 2012-12-23 12:53 pm (UTC)
morwen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morwen
Carol Strickland puts it better than I could. I suppose I should note a trigger warning for rape.

Date: 2012-12-23 01:00 pm (UTC)
invadertoph: (Default)
From: [personal profile] invadertoph
Oh God that one....I've read about it. That was the comic that cemented my theory that the Avengers aren't friends so much as a group of assholes that happen to live together. Like the Real World but with superpowers.

Date: 2012-12-23 01:08 pm (UTC)
morwen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morwen
I had a brief read of it in prep for my review of Avengers Annual 10 (which acknowledges the problems with 200). I, even knowing the broad outline, was appalled. It wasn't some subtext that snuck in there by accident, if they had been intending to write a story that proves that the Avengers are contemptible jerks, they couldn't have done a better job.

Avengers Annual 10 deals with this and with Rogue mindwiping Carol, and it's clear which is the bigger deal: the Avengers standing by and doing nothing. Compared to that what's a little amnesia?

Date: 2012-12-22 09:17 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
That's a fair explanation. Which i didn't actually realise till he said it.

Now, he just called a large, fictional ethnic (?) group 'outcasts', and doesn't seem to have anything else to say on that matter, which is unnerving. Guess the 'Avengers don't do much for mutants' things runs father back than I realised haha.

Note: I *know* that there's an out of universe, real world reason the Avengers don't jump too much in mutant affairs, but it affects the story and characters in universe in a large, so it still bugs me.

He was pretty suave with the shield just then, smooth.

Date: 2012-12-22 09:48 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
Actually, I thought Cap was being kinda classy about it. Instead of saying "They're the 'mutant team'." he just said they were outcasts. Which is very true, and since it wasn't really his point, it makes sense that he didn't really belabor it much.

Date: 2012-12-22 09:59 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
haha, I'm probably being uppity, but I look at it this way: I don't accept or believe about mutants being a good metaphor for general racism/homophobia etc, BUT, when a character talks about mutants my mind replaces the mutant with the a real worl counterpart.

Imagine if he was talking about... hmm... the Black Panthers, or better yet the black power movement in general, and he said they banded together because they're 'outcasts' - pragmatically, he's right, but when you use that word and just move on with your conversation it comes off as complacent, especially for a character like Captain America. It sounds like he's thinks they're outcasts just because, rather than because of an actual important thing like racism.

Eh, just came off weird in his context of speaking, however, you are right, it wasn't his point, so his swift moving through that point isn't really bad.

Date: 2012-12-23 07:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] spacebetween
I don't know, by having mutant members on the team is really the only thing the Avengers can do. It's not like they can actively do much more aside from showing that normal humans and mutants can work together.

Date: 2012-12-23 12:56 pm (UTC)
morwen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morwen
They have a bully pulpit. They have influence and access to the government. Hey, if they wanted to they could go on strike in solidarity.

Date: 2012-12-23 01:34 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] spacebetween
Ah yes like having government access means that it sway the minds of those that hate mutants. The government isn't the magical solution to the issue to the hatred and fear of mutants, especially to the average person on the street.

Going on strike would be stupid, since for starters the Avengers do not work for the government they just work with the government. Plus it gives the villains a free pass, something they have had since Civil War onwards. Also X-Factor worked with the government and there wasn't anything ground breaking in change there.

The most effective solution is having a diverse team that includes mutants. By showing that a diverse range of races can work together on a team has more of effect then what government access will ever had to most people. It's not going to change everyone's minds but it is way more effective then what the government would do. It is also faster with a hang of a lot less red tape to hold up things.

Date: 2012-12-23 01:52 pm (UTC)
morwen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] morwen
Changing people's minds is a longer-term problem, but in this era the mutants were facing an existential threat. The US government is a direct participant in the oppression of mutants: it funded the construction of the sentinels, and passed the Mutant Registration Act. It's right to directly oppose those measures at the appropriate level.

Date: 2012-12-23 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] spacebetween
A vast majority of the Sentinel projects weren't even public knowledge so it is hard to fight against something that is a shadow project that is kept from the public or even most government records. And not every Sentinel project was government funded, several were privately funded. As it is several Sentinel projects were carried out throught out the tenure of X-Factor as well and they didn't even know about it.

The MR Act is the only thing I agree with you on, but as it X-Men comics have a habit of only showing it from X-Men stand point. And the fact that the Avengers have mutant member a majority of the time, one would assume that in reality it would come up in conversation. Just unfortunately the writers never pause to consider that so we never really see that side of it. The writers instead just tend to focus on them fighting someone. As it is we never see the Fantastic Four side since it would affect them with Franklin. So it is hard to gage it from that side. But since some members supported the SHR Act and some opposed it during Civil War would show their opinion on the MR Act.

Date: 2012-12-23 03:08 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
The point is that bigotry and discrimination are more than just a psychological attitude that people need to get over. They are manifested in institutions and material infrastructure (in this case Sentinels, for example). A call for reform would have the people responsible for the Sentinel projects punished, and the government reformed so that no such projects could come to exist again. The creation and trade of Sentinels should be cracked down on, etc.

Like the goal of the Civil Rights Movement wasn't to stop Americans from being racist. If that were the case it would be a failure, Americans are still hella racist even today. It was to ensure that people got equal rights under the law. Racists can still be racist, but they can't openly discriminate against black people under penalty of law.

Date: 2012-12-24 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] spacebetween
I doubt that the government would ban the production of Sentinels as they have military applications. Heck they might as well banned robots entirely if they go down that road, as Machine Man at one stage had Sentinel systems. Also there is other governments and corporations that have their own Sentinel projects which the government has no control over.

Regardless unless the Avengers decided to take over the government, they can't really do too much aside from what normal civil rights people do. Which realistically they can't do as some of them have other jobs outside of the Avengers and do the usual job of saving the world. Beside at the end of the day, working along side mutants is a strong statement. Besides why is solely an Avengers job, no one seems to complain about the Fantastic Four not doing anything or the countless other teams that have existed over the time.

Date: 2012-12-24 05:27 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, and the government didn't want to ban slavery initially because it had economic applications, do you see where I am going with this? Sentinels are not generic robots, they are robots specifically programmed to hunt down mutants. Of course the government can ban that, they can ban private corporations from having Sentinels. They can impose economic or diplomatic sanctions on countries with Sentinel projects. See: nuclear materials. You seem to have a very limited idea of what governments are capable of doing.

The point is that you seem to think that having mutants on the team is the most the Avengers can do. Of course it's not. They can, as a group, condemn the Mutant Registration Act and Sentinels and so on. They can use their superpowers to blow up all the Sentinels from these rogue government / private projects, just like the X-Men do. They're not obliged to do any of these things, of course. But they can do so much more than simply having mutants on the team.

Date: 2012-12-24 11:51 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
since for starters the Avengers do not work for the government they just work with the government

In this era they pretty much did, they needed Government oversight in order to be allowed to do things like fly quinjets over US space taking precedence over anything else. Also the reason for the influence that Gyrich had on their membership.


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