cyberghostface: (Spidey & MJ)
[personal profile] cyberghostface posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Dying in Dr. Octopus' body, Spidey confronts Ock (in his body) one last time. Peter is unable to transfer his consciousness back, but as his life flashes before his eyes Ock receives them as well via their mental link, with himself in place of Peter in them.

Ock (still in Spidey's body) tells Spidey he doesn't want this, and asks how he can do what Spidey does. Spidey (in Ock's body) tells him that he has to, because with great power...

But "Ock" is dead.

While this will probably last as long as Captain America's death did, I actually like the idea of a (reformed?) Ock as Spider-Man. I think there's a lot of potential with this idea and I'm definitely on board for Superior Spider-Man.

So I'm surprised to say this, but kudos to Slott. I'm looking forward to see where Ock!Spidey goes from here.

EDIT: There's an interesting write-up here.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:08 am (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
So many things about this pissed me off when I read it a week ago (My LCS broke the street date for this week's comics for their customers with pull lists) but one thing (Out of many) that really pissed me off - Dan Slott seems to think the ASM readers can't remember the last time Ock was seen, trying to KILL 98% OF LIFE ON EARTH so he'd be remembered as history's greatest monster, all of 8 months ago.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:12 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
"Dan Slott seems to think the ASM readers can't remember the last time Ock was seen, trying to KILL 98% OF LIFE ON EARTH so he'd be remembered as history's greatest monster, all of 8 months ago."

What makes you say that? This is a Dr. Octopus transformed by first-hand experience of Peter's memories and morality.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:45 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
What kind of transformation is this? He has basically killed Peter Parker as a result of his actions, and his response is to say he will be superior to Peter and be a better Peter Parker than Peter ever was. How on earth would have sharing Peter's memories and guilt and sense of responsibility and so on have led him to this conclusion? It's nonsensical.

Date: 2012-12-26 12:55 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
It's imbued him with a morality of sorts, but he still has his innate arrogance.

Date: 2012-12-26 01:26 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
And on what is this morality based? If he's experienced all of Peter's memories (a montage of cradling dead people in his arms), we would think that he has acquired a form of guilt-based morality. He would be driven to act because of the people he has failed to protect, the times he has failed to live up to responsibilities. He cannot bear to let people be hurt because of his inaction.

But Doc Ock, having just killed Peter Parker, doesn't feel guilty. He's not trying to figure out a way to re-wire Peter Parker's brain meats and bring Peter Parker back. He's not torn up by the thought of having to deal with Peter Parker's loved ones, now that the man they cared about is dead. Instead, he's thinking to himself how he'll be superior to Parker, meaning that it's probably a good thing that he got to take over Parker's life.

This is just completely arbitrary. Slott expects us to believe that Spider-man's memories and experiences would make Ock want to continue being the man he killed and stole the identity of, while still remaining a sociopathic narcissist. It's substituting scientific mumbo-jumbo for character development.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:01 pm (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
People can be sociopath narcissists yet still follow their own code of morality. See: Dr. Doom.

Date: 2012-12-26 02:10 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, I am asking you to elaborate on Octo-Spiderman's morality. How has he reached these decisions? How do his actions make any sense given the experiences he has had? If he is a sociopathic narcissist, why would Parker's memories have any effect on him?

I mean, I would understand a Sociopathic Spider-man, where Ock is taking over Peter's life and raping Mary Jane to feed his enormous ego. I'm not complaining that Ock is a sociopath. I'm complaining that his actions are nonsensical and that the story is poorly written.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Because they're not "Parkers memories" anymore, they are now his own and he can't escape that. He's experienced a sort of "Road to Damascus" moment, though not through his own experiences, but by acquiring Peter's.

Peter's compassion and heroism has "infected" Otto's personality, not overwhelming it, but certainly informing it in new ways.

Date: 2012-12-26 04:25 pm (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Yes, how so? In what way? What are the moral principles he follows?

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Spider-man works on a guilt-based morality. He cannot bear to have people die when he could have done something to save them. That's why the illustration of his morality is him holding a sequence of dying people.

Dr. Octopus is not behaving as though he is guilty of causing Peter Parker's death. He is not torn up at the idea of having to deceive all of Peter Parker's loved ones, now that Parker is dead at his hands. He is not trying to rewire his/Peter Parker's brain and bring Peter Parker back. His heroism is ego-based: he will be a better Spider-man than Spider-man.

What on earth has he learned from Peter Parker's memories that lead him to decide to be a hero?

Date: 2012-12-26 05:02 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
In short, and to repeat a trope, "With great power comes great responsibility". This is not a lessson Otto ever learned, until now, but now it's a part of him.

Peter Parker worked on guilt based morality, but informed by the above. Otto can learn from one and become the other, but filtered through his own, dominant, perceptions. He won't let innocent people die either, but he might do so by very different means to Peter, such as killing the one doing the threatening. By preventing those people from threatening/harming others ever again, his ego would be satisfied too because he'd have gone one "better" than Peter.

Date: 2012-12-26 10:58 pm (UTC)
lorriek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lorriek
I don't see how they expect us to think Ock's decision is based on anything other than than egoism. The dude just murdered a man so he can wear his body and he seems pretty okay with it. He's certainly not going to confess to the Avengers or anything. The only thing that being inserted into Peter's memories seemed to achieve was Ock deciding that he could be a superior hero compared to Peter. This may be preferable to Ock using Peter's body for evil, but it's not a decision based on any sort of morality. If we are supposed to think differently, Slott should have written it differently.

Date: 2012-12-26 09:54 pm (UTC)
chrisdv: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrisdv
Yes, but it's still Otto Octavius, the guy who tried to kill wipe out most of the life on Earth during his last appearance.

Date: 2012-12-27 03:42 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
I don't see anything here to make me think we're meant to forget that fact rather than be aware of it, coloring the scene with a further sense of unease and tragedy. This isn't exactly a triumphant "hero, hoorah!" scene.


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