Aquaman #15

[superfangirl1]

A few minutes later while taking to Ocean Master.

Comments

[medster_comics]

His brother!!?? Since when Aquaman have a brother?

[darkknightjrk]

Since the 60s, when the character was first introduced.

[abagnale008]

Since 1966, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Master

[medster_comics]

Wow that as been a longtime.

I thought he was created now, by Johns.

[espanolbot]

Nope, he even was in the Young Justice tv show and comic. :)

[silverhammerman]

Oh good, superheroes fighting. Refreshing.

Is Atlantis still secret or something? Because if it's not then this plot makes no sense, if they were recognized as a nation they probably wouldn't have to worry about missile tests like that. Avoiding this kind of thing is one thing I like about a more developed superhero setting.

[benuben]

Yes, it is secret. I guess Arthur worried that Atlanteans, being paranoid racist assholes they are, wouldn't want to be revealed.

Race/Species

[blue_bolt]

I'm actually confused here: is Atlantean a species or a race?

Because breathing underwater seems more like they're a separate species.

Re: Race/Species

[benuben]

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been said yet. Atlanteans from old DCU were species.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah--they're aware that Aquaman believes he's from Atlantis, but no one's actually found it.

As for superheroes fighting--I'm thinking this is just for a cool little cliffhanger for next issue, and we'll find out that Arthur's going to be going behind the scenes to see what's up or something.

[sigmund_droid]

I always love how whenever Ocean Master is ever introduced into a new media or reboot he's always seen as the most trust-worthy dude.

Holy crap OCEAN MASTER betrayed us?! Last time we trust a guy that looks like every other super-villain!!

[benuben]

It's a bit more complicated here. First of all, he didn't betray anyone. He just said he won't attack surface world for no reason. Attack on his people is a reason for him. According to what Arthur said in this issue, when he came to Atlantis and Orm had to give up his throne, he wasn't bitching about it, he was like "okay, whatever" and it were people of Atlantis who wanted him back. Before this, he only apeared in Aquaman 14, where he came across as pretty reasonable person.

[darkknightjrk]

Yeah, it's kinda funny that in the New 52, a lot of the sibling rivalry is put by the wayside (Starfire and Blackfire, now Arthur and Orm), but they brought back Thomas Wayne Jr. as a villain.

[squirle]

Perhaps it's just due to not all pages being posted, but the Justice League look like a complete bunch of idiots. And independant nation has declared war on American. Let's beat up it's leader, that'll fix everything!

[kamino_neko]

They (aside from Aquaman...uh...until he decides to manhandle Batman) are acting like idiots.

They've gotten so caught up in looking at things from the surface POV - the Americans did NOT attack Atlantis - that they're refusing to see it from Orm's side - so far as he knows, they did. Unfortunately, the only one who's trying to explain that to him is Arthur. Also unfortunately, he's not listening, anyway.

[benuben]

They do want to explain it to him, The question is: Should they explain it to him, hope he will listen and let him go, or take him down and force him to listen to them? If they try first one, there is risk he just won't give a crap what they have to say. If they try second, Atlanteans will be more willing to surrender and they can prevent more deaths.

There is also the question, if it's right to just let Ocean Master go. Remember, he didn't try to contact Arthur, or start any sort of negotiations. No, the first thing he did, was to attack cities full of civilians and killing thousands of people. He may mean well, but he still kinda overreacted.

[akodo_rokku]

The mind-numbing dumbness and hypocrisy of the League here is really staggering. I'm not saying I agree with the Israel-style "hit us and we hit you back ten times harder" defense strategy (and indeed, this showcases how wrong that can go), but a nation's leader ordering a military counter-strike makes him a "murderer" that they have to "bring in"? Not only would that not *work* (surfacers beating up and imprisoning Orm would probably just piss the Atlanteans off and make them fight *harder*) but if that's the case, why aren't they bringing in say, Barack Obama for authorizing drone strikes?

[mrstatham]

Wow, Batman's being a real dickbag here.

I mean, it's not like HE'S spying on anyone, is it? Right? Right?

[darkknightjrk]

I wouldn't say he's being a dickbag with Arthur here at all, despite the fact that they're both kind-of fighting for the leadership role in the League. He's being his usual straight, to the point self--Arthur is being overly offensive because of the problems he's had with his people. Hell, it should be remembered that Batman's the one who decides to let Arthur try to talk down his brother in the first place.

[nate_abril96]

I don't like how Superman (or the league in general) is being portrayed in these panels. I mean he seems too willing to take down Orm using violence, instead of trying to talk him down. Yes Orm did kill hundreds (if not thousands) of people, but I feel like Superman wouldn't be so stubborn that he would feel the need to automatically use violence instead of diplomacy. If anything, capturing Orm would make Atlantis even angrier, and more willing to attack harder than surrender.

[benuben]

If the king of Atlantis has so much power as it seems, Atlanteans could also end up confused and unsure what to do. And even they do talk him down, what happens then? Should they just let Orm go back and act like nothing happened?

[nate_abril96]

I didn't say they had to let him go, and that it was a better option to take Orm down. What I said was that I don't like how Superman is too willing to use violence to take down Orm. Diplomacy would most likely not work, and even if it did I don't think that Orm would be too willing to give himself up. I just don't like to think that Superman, the most reasonable and kindest superhero, would rush towards using violence.

[benuben]

That's true, but on the other hand, he really just wants to prevent innocent people from getting hurt. One could argue that's much more reasonable and kind, since his actions are driven by his care for the people and need to stop this conflict. I do think Superman would try be more diplomatic in this situation, but I think that's more thing of personal interpretation.

[jaybee3]

I remember during the War of the Supermen fiasco (aka Earth Commits Genocide; Superman OK with it) when the forces of Earth literally destroyed almost every surviving member of Superman's species (including the little children and the babies) and not only did Superman know who did it (Sam Lane but also Lex Luthor, who built the bomb and the DC US President who gave the order) but his only response? JMS's Grounded. Yes, no calls for justice. No using the resources of the Justice League or his own reporting skills to bring everything to light, just walking the Earth because some lady slapped him.

This reaction is totally the opposite and it makes as much sense (i.e. none).

And I though Wonder Woman is a diplomat. Handing over heads of state for "justice" as if they had no rights is hardly diplomatic.

[nate_abril96]

Yeah, War of the Supermen was pretty lame. Superman shouldn't have let Luthor and the President (I leave out Lane because he killed himself) get away that easily. I mean they committed genocide of Superman's own species, so I would think that Superman would be very angry and try to take him down; but not the way Zod proposed, which was a whole invasion of Earth, which Superman would not be okay with because it would make the situation worse. Personally I always thought that was why he was trying to talk down Zod from invading Earth, because he wanted to take down Lane and his men without having to result in an all out invasion of Earth (that and Zod didn't like the people of Earth, so he would have most likely had try to use this opportunity to finally wipe us out). But apparently Superman decides to do nothing about it, which I think is another huge mischaracterization of Superman.

Also yes technically Wonder Woman is diplomacy, but because I've never have had much exposure to her before the New 52, I now see her as more of a warrior. I know that's probably a huge mischaracterization of Wonder Woman, but I blame the New 52 Wonder Woman for not doing anything diplomatic. Also, what do you mean by: "Handing over heads of state for 'justice' as if they had no rights is hardly diplomatic." Yes Orm killed thousands of people, but I didn't say that he wouldn't get a trial for the crimes that he committed. Head-of-states have been captured and brought to trial many times before in the past to pay for the crimes that they have committed, which is, in my opinion, JUSTICE.

[darkknightjrk]

Personally, I'd much rather see a Superman who flips his shit at mass murder than a Superman who passively accepts it.

Also no, I don't think Diana is a diplomat in this continuity. At this point I'm not even sure if she had a mission from the Amazons--I'm thinking right now that she just immigrated to Man's World.

[darkknightjrk]

With Superman, I think it should be remembered that this Superman started out hanging corrupt corporate executives by the scruff of their suit and dropping from skyscrapers to make them talk, the one who, when told by Brainiac to choose between Earth and the bottled city of Kandor, said he's going to free both, take Brainiac down, and save EVERY civilization he preserved.

With that in mind, I think it perfectly makes sense that Superman's mindset is, "I don't give a damn who he is, he needs to answer for his crimes."

[jaybee3]

I disliked this storyline the first time DC did it - remember New Krypton when the entire Justice League literally went after Allura (SG's mother and leader of New Krypton) and straight up ordered her to hand over her own people for Earth justice (for killing criminals pre-emptively) and then told Allura herself she had a time-limit to do these things and objected when Superman said to give him time to talk his aunt into it. Then the "heroes" (including WW the supposed diplomat) straight up attached a whole colony of fully-powered Kryptonians.

It also reminds when Osiris (brother in law of Black Adam and fully powered with Shazam magic) came back from the dead in Blackest Night and the very first scene in that horrible Deathstroke and the Outsiders book was Wonder Girl (someome who hijacked the President of the US's plane in Amazons Attack) telling him not that she and the other TT were glad to see him alive again but that he should hand himself in to the authorities for the murder of that Suicide Squad villiain all the way back in 52 even though since that time he had been killed and with his return he was the only member of Khandaq's royal family alive.

Has no one who runs DC or (in-universe) the Justice League understand the concept of international law and the sovereignty of nation states or something as simple as diplomatic immunity? Aquaman has to turn on his people and hand over his brother to these air-breathers with an entirely different legal system. Really, Geoff Johns?

In other words. Yeah, same old story.

[benuben]

Funny you mention Amazons Attack since so far, this story seems like almost a remake. Just less shitty.

I admit, I have know next to nothing about law when it comes to this, but does diplomatic immunity really apply for attacking cities with tidal waves and attacking every recognized nation in the world? Wouldn't that count as special circumstances?

[jaybee3]

Well for diplomatic immunity I was thinking in terms of Osiris (who with his return became the de facto head of Khandaq) and how ridiculous it was for Wonder Girl for tell him to turn himself in to American authorities.

But the larger issues at hand is how the Justice League and other heroes in recent years literally think they can just march into independent countries and order people to be handed over to them or order them to do what they want. And they're completely arbitrary about it. Like I said, Superman KNEW the US govt. was behind the genocide of his own people (and the suffocation in space of his own Red Shard unit that he witnessed first hand) but in the end he let it go (in order words when push came to shove Zod was RIGHT in that storyline about how the Kryptonians couldn't trust Kal-El to fight by their side) and the whole point of Black Adam's rampage in 52 was that the government of China and other countries was behind the assassination of Isis and Osiris - and the Justice League never called them out on it.

[benuben]

I haven't read War of Supermen or 52. I was talking just about this event.

Yeah, I agree. This is why I'm against having real life leaders in superhero universes like DC or Marvel.

[shadwing]

Yeah...okay.

I REALLY don't like how the League looks here. They refuse to see that there is a FREAKING NATION in the ocean, populated by people whose only experances with the surface world have been poison, trash and getting slaughtered. They have no reason to trust the League (or anybody else from the Surface) let alone surrender their leader to them.

Missles go off and (in theory these panels don't show that) kill/hurt heaven only knows how many Atlantians. So when they return fire...suddenly they are 'Murderers' and need to serve 'Justice'

I'm shocked nobody has stated from the Atlantian side "OKay..we'll surrender our King to 'Surface Justice' when you surrender the ones who ordered the firing of those missles at us for 'Atlantian Justice'." That would give the tension for this Ocean/Surface War and try to cut down on the bone headedness from the League.

[darkknightjrk]

Missles go off and (in theory these panels don't show that) kill/hurt heaven only knows how many Atlantians.

We see the strike in the first pages of JL #15--it seems to hit three members of Atlantean guard, maybe injures them (considering how strong guys like Arthur have to be to survive at the bottom of the ocean, I would imagine that missile strikes wouldn't be AS serious for them as it would for normal humans).

...In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder if Atlantis' attack has less to do with the missiles hitting Atlantis and more that they think the missiles awoke the Trench.

[benuben]

What Atlanteans are doing isn't self-defense, it's genocide. They are flooding cities, they KNOW are inhabited by milions of civilians. If South Korea would attack North Korea and North Korea would respond by nuking every single nation in the world but them, would they be in right?

[crazycomiccult.blogspot.com]

Am I the only one who laughed at that last page just because it seems like Aquaman's about to lose a hand again?

[darkknightjrk]

That would be a hilarious way for him to lose his hand in the New 52--from pimp-handling Batman so hard his hand falls off.

[starwolf_oakley]

"My people are a superstititous and...
"Yes?
"...agressive lot, Batman."
"Darn."

[invadertoph]

I haven't been reading Aquaman but I want to violently attack the Justice League right now. I can't remember them acting this completely dickish before. I hope they eventually realize how stupid their acting. Or that the Atlanteans take over the earth. Good lord I haven't been this mad at a comic since Civil War.

[darkknightjrk]

Well, this and Aquaman has really given great lengths to show that Atlantis really isn't a good place--full of superstition, corruption, and murder, especially when it came to the throne. I mean, look at this situation--missiles hit three Atlanteans, maybe critically injures them, and the way they retaliate is to flood two major cities, killing hundreds if not thousands of people, maybe even more if superheroes weren't in the area.

[shadwing]

I'm seeing it as bottled up rage, Aquaman also states that for ages all Atlantis has gotten from the Surface is, poison, trash and death.

The flooding may have more to do with the many Atlantian's who have been harmed though the years, the missle attack could be the first DIRECT attack they felt justified in using to strike back, and take back what they (the Atlantians) see as long over due pay back.

Espeically in a dark and gritty situation as Atlantis seems to be.

[benuben]

Well, if they are so upset about the way surface treats them, maybe they should... I don't know... LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY EXIST! I mean, their reasoning is quite sympathetic, but they are so not having moral high-ground in this conflict.

[daningram.insanejournal.com]

Why, in these scans, is no one discussing finding out why Atlantis was bombed in the first place? Because in the first scan, it's pretty clear that the league knows about it.

[benuben]

Given the situation, it's the last thing they should be concerned about. Atlanteans are flooding cities now. They will have plenty of time figuring that out once they end this.

[jlroberson]

I was wondering how long it would take DC's present attempt to imitate Marvel in the 1990s to bring us to ATLANTIS ATTACKS. (or was that 1989?)