Amazing Spider-Man #700

[flint_marko]

Later, "Spidey" has all of his loved ones and friends go to his secret safe room to protect them from the escaped "Doctor Octopus."

Comments

[zabilac]

So, let me get this straight...Peter and Mary Jane can't be together, but Ok in Peter's body and Mary Jane can?

[jetblack927]

Yea, talk about giving what the people want and NOT giving what the people want at the same time...

[violetclm.livejournal.com]

Dear Humberto Ramos:
Please stop drawing.

[lucky_gamble]

+1

[thanekos]

" Another victory for the Master Planner.

.. I must get her to call me that in bed. "

[servant_iskandar]

I think Slott's actually taking potshots at Otto's ego: note how he is bragging... with himself about his utter "defeat" of Parker. A very Ock thing to do.
This is, after all, before their final confrontation and the "Superior" oath; though Otto going after MJ is clearly a can of worms waiting to be open, as others are pointing throughout the thread.

[kevinroc]

The very serious question going on about this is (and I wish I could offer a trigger warning on this post): If MJ sleeps with Otto thinking he's Peter, is that rape?

Because this raises all sorts of issues that I don't think Marvel can answer. The closest I can think of them doing on the subject was when the Skrull posing as Hank Pym got Tigra pregnant and Marvel's response to the whole thing was basically to ignore that fraudulent activity had taken place.

(I live in California, which has a "Rape by Fraud" law on the books. Which is exactly what it sounds like. Where the perpetrator gains the victim's consent through deception or fraudulent actions. Taking over the body of another person and pretending to be that person would definitely fall under that definition.)

[an_idol_mind]

I'm pretty sure it would be rape by fraud. And you'd think that Marvel, fresh off of getting slammed with complaints when they did basically this thing with the Chameleon, would know better than to open this can of worms.

[team_mummy]

MJ's facial contortions are off the charts, ugh! Also; he's seeing MJ again? I dunno anymore.

[sadoeuphemist]

Yessss, this is the best part of the whole mind-switch idea. How Peter Parker's friends and loved ones will completely fail to realize Ock isn't actually Peter. Or, in the case of Mary Jane, how they sort of realize but get turned on by that sort of thing.

[captainbellman]

"Ewwww, this is the worst part of the whole mind-switch idea."

Fixed that for you.

[silverhammerman]

Just beyond scummy. I give so leeway in regards to that since at this point in the issue Ock is actually the villain, but moving into the ongoing series I really hope that now that he's gotten all of Peter's guilt and responsibility downloaded into him he'll be hesitant to pursue a relationship with MJ due to realizing how scummy it would be.

[sadoeuphemist]

Nah, he's not even particularly guilty about killing Peter Parker to begin with, he'll probably be fine with it.

[wake_the_dragon]

Bullshit. I don't believe that MJ would be fooled by Otto in Peter's body.

Also, I'm shocked Marvel would go down this road again. After the controversy that followed the subplot with the Chameleon, I thought they would have learned from that mistake. I obviously gave them too much credit.

[beyondthefringe]

Yes. Exactly. No matter what's gone on, no matter what else, how can Mary Jane listen to the things coming out of "Peter's" mouth and not think something is wrong?

Just because Doctor Octopus has access to all of Peter's experiences, memories, feelings, and so on, he's still, for all intents and purposes, a stranger in the body. He's not a trained actor or impersonator - he's not Mysterio or Chameleon to hop into someone's life and take it over. He's not going to act the same, move the same, or talk the same, and how can Mary Jane or Aunt May or any of the dozens of heroes who've worked with Peter not realize that something is wrong?

I'm reading this dialogue, and it's just so far from what Peter would say, what he's ever said, that it should be raising red flags in anyone who's known him for any amount of time... especially a ex-girlfriend/ex-fiancee/best friend who's slept with him and known him intimately.

ESPECIALLY someone who knows he's a super-hero. ESPECIALLY someone who as good as lives in a world with clones, doppelgangers, time travelers, alternate dimensional counterparts, Life Model Decoys.

I... I'm not opposed to the idea in general, but if MJ, of all people, doesn't suspect something is up from the way Peter talks, acts, behaves, responds - hell, how he KISSES - then I'll be sorely disappointed.

Tell me that Daredevil won't pick up changes in body language/heartbeat/tones.
Tell me that Logan won't sense something's off.

The only way this can seriously work long term is if a lot of people are extremely stupid, or Otto Octavius is a much better actor than we ever imagined.

[stillanerd]

Regarding my thoughts about this particular scene--It’s bad enough that Doc Ock throughout “Dying Wish” has been taking advantage of MJ’s love for Peter to try and have sex with her, but for him to successfully seduce MJ like this is pretty sickening. Granted, there’s no intercourse has taken place between them as of yet, but the possibility that MJ is in danger of becoming a victim of rape by deception is the Sword of Damocles looming over the new status quo. Because anyone with any ounce of common sense knows that if MJ knew “Peter“ was really Doc Ock, she wouldn’t reciprocating any of his advances towards her, let alone be anywhere in the same room with him. For someone who even Slott has insisted is “the most important person in Spider-Man’s life,” this is a huge disservice to her character and towards fans of her and Peter’s relationship.

This also echoes a controversial subplot by Fred Van Lente from three years ago6, where the Chameleon, also disguised as Peter, made advances on Peter’s then roommate, Michele Gonzeles, which resulted in what appeared to be them about to engage in sex on their kitchen floor (though Marvel clarified they were just “swapping spit.”) Now with “Spider-Man” and Mary Jane “newfound romance,” Marvel’s on the verge of venturing into the same treacherous waters only a thousand times more turbulent and destructive. And DC and Marvel wonder why they still have trouble courting female readers.

[filkertom]

Once again, I seriously have to wonder who they think wants to read stuff like this.

Or look at it. I think MJ grew a cheekbone in there.

And, yeah, there is no way MJ would not notice that Peter's speech pattern is, oh, completely off.

Sigh.

[captainbellman]

Yep, It's happened. Dan Slott's has completely given up on any attempt to get people to like Spider-Man. His entire writing ethos is now geared entirely on pissing people off. He must have resigned himself to it long ago...how sad.

[akodo_rokku]

Honestly, I look forward to Slott moving on from Spidey. Remember when he wrote things that were *fun*?

[jaybee3]

Wow, this is skeezy. It's pretty much Gwen Stacy/Osbourne (which to be fair was a flashback in Peter's mind) and Michelle/Chameleon ramped up to ten. Doing it to MJ, who pre-OMD could tell when Peter wasn't being "Peter", makes it worse (and wasn't it Slott writing her as being the biggest Carlie Cooper supporter ever just a few months ago?).

With the DCnU being so unreadable (IMO at least) I've been taking a look at Marvel and like what I see: Journey Into Mystery with Kid Loki and now Sif, Captain Marvel, Avengers, Fantastic Four, good books and yet with their flagship character they give us THIS? Why?

Also, the whole MJ saying "Face it, Tiger" line to Peter being a special thing less weighty and less "special" when Slott himself had MJ using the same exact line to the obnoxious Bobby Carr as a term of endearment post-OMD.

[gunny]

"Trite" who says that?!? oh, Doc Ok, that's who. I'm delighted that Peter's sudden change in vernacular has escaped EVERYONE'S attention, particularly those he's closest to and loved by. He's acting exactly like Peter Parker. Really.

[philippos42]

When it got to "another victory for the Master Planner" I started reaching toward the screen to throttle Ock.

This is so disgusting.

What is with these comic companies trying to troll readers?

[jlroberson]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'm glad I've never been a Spider-fan because it seems like the most punishing, thankless kind of fandom one can be cursed to. They certainly seem to do everything they can to drive readers away.

[sianmink]

Who else thinks this is going to get really awkward when Ock's old crush on Aunt May comes back up?

[selke]

Love triangle!

[thefiretonight]

Forever creeped out by Ock-Spidey.

[selke]

I think I'm one of the rare ones who actually LIKES Ramos's art (except for the last page. That's a new level of awful.)

This is just... creepy. Like I need hand sanitizer creepy.

[suzene]

So, according to Stephen Wacker, there is no rape implied here, and people who bring up concerns about it are only seeing what they want to see and treating the subject lightly by even suggesting the possibility. (Source)

So I guess the question is, what the heck are we supposed to be seeing, then? What is the mood Slott is supposed to be putting across? Are we supposed to be happy? Are we supposed to be aroused? Are we supposed to be getting the warm fuzzies? No. We're supposed to be angry and skeeved because this is creepy as fuck. It involves the violation of two people, and Slott and Wacker are perfectly aware that's where the tension in this scene comes from. At the very least, it's sexual assault, and if there's a FTB with all that such usually entails, then yes, it's rape.

This isn't people seeing what they want to see, it's them seeing what the writer and editor wanted them to see, and I think it's pretty damned disgusting that the people involved in putting this out for public consumption are at such a remove that they're willing to play rape and sexual assault for dramatic tension, but squirm away from actually naming them for what they are. As mentioned above, it's the Chameleon business all over again, with yet another round of the people who put these comics out showing their cluelessness and reluctance to accept any level of responsibility or criticism with regards to their choices. I'd say it's a shame that they're doing this while working with a character whose core is all about responsibility, but between OMD, Alpha, and the recent bouts of torture, I'm pretty sure they haven't been writing that character for a while anyway.

[silverhammerman]

Wacker has really reacted to this in the worst way possible. I think Wacker either legitimately doesn't see any basis for the concerns people are raising, or he knows that they're not actually going to go in that direction, so he's upset that people are focusing on that angle, and either way that could make people upset. Really though, when you've got a bunch of people pointing out that something is, if not rape, at the very least rape-adjacent, it's time to step back and reevaluate things. Maybe talk to some people, rethink where the storyline is heading, consider fan concerns for once, and make a proper statement addressing those concerns instead of dismissing them.
And I really don't like the implication that comics should't be held to the same standards that other mediums are when it comes to this stuff. This shit wouldn't fly on network TV and it shouldn't fly in a comic like Spider-Man.
I honestly, genuinely hope that if they go forward with an MJ/Ock romance (which I actually think is somewhat doubtful) that Marvel gets in trouble big time. Like advocacy groups and media outlets just come down on them. I'd relish seeing Marvel get called on the creepy misogyny that pervades the medium.

[kusonaga]

Is this skeevy? Yes. Is this a pretty typical comic book trope, where bad guy in good guy body kisses with good guy's girlfriend? Yes. Are they going to have sex? I hope not and I expect not. I figure Slott's got enough sense to not go there. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, huh?

[sadoeuphemist]

I don't think it's that typical a trope? I can't name another example of it off the top of my head.

[cyberghostface]

FWIW Dan Slott is aware of the controversy about this and he said it will be dealt with in the Superior so I don't think he'll do what Van Lente did. Plus if his intentions are to make Ock a sympathetic antihero I don't think he'll have him rape Spidey's wife.

[silverhammerman]

I think that as Peter's guilt trip really takes hold we'll see Ock become reluctant to take advantage of MJ and probably have to do the old "drive her away to protect her" ploy that we've seen so many times. It wouldn't be particularly interesting, but it's way more likely than Marvel thinking that they can get away with replacing their flagship everyman character with a remorseless murder and rapist.

[ablackraptor]

Anyone else notice that in the first panel he's staring at her with murder face?

The art is pretty bad in general, but it doubles for making things incredibly creepy.

[silverhammerman]

So the consensus from all corners seems to be that MJ/Ock would almost certainly count as rape, but what about people other than MJ? Like hypothetically, what if Spider-Ock got a new love interest? The person might not think Ock that is Peter, at least in the sense that they might not have had a pre-existing relationship with Peter, but I doubt they'd be involved with Ock if they knew he was a decrepit murderer riding around in a stolen body.
And what about Peter? It's his body and he's certainly not consenting, so I feel like it would also be major violation to him. Though I seriously doubt that that issue would ever be dealt with after Peter comes back, given how reluctant comics seem to deal with the idea of male rape in any serious way.
The more I think about it the more I come to realize that Marvel couldn't have Spider-Ock involved in any sort of romance without it being massively unpleasant and creepy if anyone stopped to consider it for more than a second.

[bardbrain]

Well, a couple of things.

People's knowledge of eachother is always incomplete. Posing as Peter is different than simply not admitting he's killed people. By that standard, all sex is rape unless you list dealbreakers and turnoffs first.

And what if it's someone who actively doesn't want to know who he is?

I could see a Black Cat-type fling coming out of this. Particularly if she knows he isn't Peter and doesn't want to know who he is or something like that. Maybe if she knew he was somebody else in Peter's body, for example, and that Peter wasn't coming back.

I don't think many people could be a confidante for Otto here (and he may need one) but Felicia strikes me as the one person who, while she might be initially upset, would deal with him if he starts actually reforming and would tell him she didn't want to know his past.

Of course, that would require a scenario where she realizes it's a new Spider-man and nobody else does.

[theepicbeyond]

As to whether or not this is rape, the question to ask is does this feel icky or wrong. If the answer to one is yes the answer to the other usually is yes too.

Did anyone out there watch the similar storyline when it played out in fringe? The main heroine Olivia Dunham was replaced by her doppelganger from a parallel universe for spy purposes. To get what she needed she seduced Peter Bishop who had an ongoing will they wont they genuine love budding with the original Olivia. When it was revealed that the woman he had been sleeping with was fake it left all parties involved feeling violated and skeeved out. Even the doppleganger spy. It was supposed to make the audience feel weird and it did.

To be honest it doesn't surprise me that Ock would have sex on his mind. He's always been a fat nerd, and has spent the better part of the last year dying. Now he's a handsome young superhero. A better way for this scenario to play out would start off with him trying to seduce MJ, and then stop himself thinking about the unfortunate implications of rape by fraud. Like in Fringe this type of story is meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Maybe Ock well feel as bad as us the audience and say something to the effect that "Petty carnal lust is beneath The Master Planner. I am a Superior spider-man I dont need to rely on this fraud." As best as i can remember Ock's never been a lecherous old man. We've seen 100 "Villain in the heroes place causes havok" stories. I think the interesting thing with the Spidey-Ock story would be seeing if being a hero could semi redeem Doc Ock. Maybe realizing how much of a ass he's being would start Ock down a better path.

[pyrrhocorax]

The art is gross and the story is ultra-gross. Why must you do this to MJ Marvel?