Date: 2013-02-09 01:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
The last page of this story was what really sold this to me--there's dramatic irony in it at Meredith's expense, but then you think about what it really means...

I like Merrymaker in general too--he's got a great look, and his MO of manipulation could make for an interesting addition to the Rogues Gallery moving forward.

Date: 2013-02-09 05:59 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
True, that "1600s Plague Doctor" look doesn't get utilised as often as it deserves. It's definitely got a creepy appeal.

Date: 2013-02-09 02:43 am (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Ten minutes alone with the Joker (bound to a chair) ends with my pen stuck through his eye socket. Seriously, enough with this "oh he seems insane, and violent, but he's also really charismatic and smart."

No, comic book people are just dumb.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:02 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Really, this strikes me as an admission that Joker has mind-affecting powers.

Date: 2013-02-09 02:34 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Evil people can be unbelievably charismatic, just look at history.

Date: 2013-02-09 02:54 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Some are really good at speeches and such, because they're so legitimately into their crazy, but everyone gets affected in minutes is a bit much.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:24 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Right. That's my bigger issue. That people (who are of sound mind and rational, and KNOW who the Joker is, and the violent acts he's committed) are just continually swayed by him.

Thus why it made so much sense BatmanBeyond!Bruce's advice was to "ignore him and power through," while Terry thought he should counter the Hannibal Lecturing with his own.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:31 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (TheBlackCat Happy Terry)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And Terry did such a lovely job of pwning the Joker.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:49 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Indeed. 'Affects everyone' is basically a superpower. Animated Joker was just unpredictable and good at getting under people's skins, but could be blocked out.

Date: 2013-02-09 06:44 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I thought that was one of the more grotesque things about the flashback sequence of Return of the Joker, really - the idea that converting Tim into Joker Junior took a long time.

But then, in a number of ways, I've always found the Hamill Joker to be the best of the bunch. He could be funnier, he could be nastier, he could be scarier, when he needed to be. But by and large, it was just a rather more well-rounded character than the nutjob murderer of the books. I have zero problems reconciling the BTAS Joker who stole the Lexwing during World's Finest and bombed Metropolis with the BTAS Joker who did what he did to Tim. I do, however, just see an increasing mess of contradictions when it comes to comics Joker.

Date: 2013-02-09 08:33 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Robin Joker Another day....)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Comparing the marvellously mercurial, whimsical/sinister but always potentially homicidal Dini/Hamill Joker with the relatively recent comic book one is almost painful to me. The BTAS Joker, like his old comic book equivlaent, had no problems with murder, but only if it was funny. If it was "funnier" to inflict pain (emotional or physical) then he'd do that instead.

Date: 2013-02-09 08:48 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Bingo. I think you're right on the money. Again, take Return of the Joker; He could probably have killed Batman at any time during the confrontation in Arkham, especially when he's playing the footage of what he did to Tim; Instead, he not only shows the footage, but takes the time to crow about and mock everything he now knows about Bruce. Hell, even turning Tim into an approximation of himself is designed to be horrifically painful, when he could have just killed him.

So, absolutely. There's just such consistency to the BTAS Joker despite the different things he does in various stories. I mean, I haven't minded Death of the Family's Joker, but only in the main book, and I think that's because Snyder is seemingly specifically aiming for something close to the BTAS voice for the character. When Joker started snarling for Batman to sit his ass down on his throne in the most recent issue, it reeked of the scene in Phantasm where the Joker suddenly turns vicious for all of a split second in telling Sal Valestra not to touch him. Otherwise.. I don't feel there's anything that makes Comics!Joker special, anymore.

Date: 2013-02-09 08:42 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Exactly. He could do some really horrible stuff- but he worked at it and he was smart. People weren't magically affected by him.

Date: 2013-02-09 08:51 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Exactly. As much as I like Death of the Family's main story, one thing I dislike is that Bruce seems slightly or massively afraid of Joker at varying intervals, and has to tell himself he's just a man. Whereas in BTAS, people were scared of him, sure, but there were plenty of people who couldn't give a damn, like Lex, Superman, even Andrea in Phantasm. It's just sloppy writing to make him instantly terrifying and scary for everyone, and more importantly, he hasn't even earned it, in my eyes, thanks to the crunched timeline of the DCnU. Every time that Joker starts relating about how Batman was better when he had no-one at his side, under Snyder's pen, I'm thinking 'since when? you mean that five minutes he didn't have a Robin once?'.

Date: 2013-02-10 12:37 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yea, compression does hurt things ^^

It also means he just popped up and immediately got a huge body count, got put away, messed with people's heads and made a legacy, all in a very short time.

It's incredibly supernatural-seeming.

Date: 2013-02-09 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Stalin was said to be a pretty poor speaker/debater, but excellent at the kind of one-on-one conversation where he's trying to intimidate/convince you of something.

Date: 2013-02-10 04:23 am (UTC)
an_idol_mind: (Default)
From: [personal profile] an_idol_mind
I think the issue with the Joker is that we're told he's evil and charismatic but never shown anything of the sort. There have been very few times in the last decade or so of comics where the Joker has committed a crime where he came off as a criminal genius as opposed to everybody else looking stupid.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:31 am (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
I think a good balance can be made, that he can be insane and violent but also charismatic. Like Hannibal Lecter. But some stories take it way too far, and make Joker into a God and it is just awful.

Unfortunately, there are more bad uses than good ones (Banana tripping lawyer, giving a baby tetanus, etc.)

Remember, for Harley Quinn took months for her to defect to Joker.

Date: 2013-02-09 06:01 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I can recall a fiendishly delightful moment in an otherwise lacklustre comic wherein Joker is consigned to death row, shortly to receive the chair. In the few days before, screaming is heard from his cell and the guards rush in to find a panicky priest.

"THANK THE LORD YOU'RE HERE!"

"Father, what's wrong? What's he doing to you?"

"CONFESSING!"

Date: 2013-02-09 02:36 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"Joker: Devil's Advocate" and we do hear a snippet of the Joker's confession and you start to feel the poor priest has a point.

Date: 2013-02-09 06:44 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
The Devil does it with more style in Hellblazer.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:11 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Because this worked so great last time they did this. You would think that the people who work in Gotham's judicial system would have developed some self preservation instinct.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:23 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
Why'd the doctor send the Meredith to Arkham when he actually admitted that sociopathy wasn't an accurate diagnosis? Did Meredith do something to harm this guy personally? Because otherwise it's a pretty random thing to do, not to mention one that could result in a freshly insane Meredith breaking out to come after him.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:00 am (UTC)
avantre: (Default)
From: [personal profile] avantre
Dunno. Perhaps he was angry that someone from his profession abused the trust of his position and made his patients worse rather than tried to cure them?

Date: 2013-02-09 04:01 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
That'd make him pretty hypocritical given what goes on at Arkham.

Date: 2013-02-09 02:37 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
That may be the point.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:27 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lonewolf23k
The last panel shows the doctor to be making doodles of the Joker in his notepad, calling back to something Meredith said about some of the Joker-obsessed people he manipulated.

So the doctor basically sent him to Arkham as a twisted Joke.

Date: 2013-02-09 07:25 am (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
Maybe he's just an asshole who likes to abuse his powers. This is Gotham, you know.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:09 am (UTC)
shingi70: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shingi70
Always wondered why most of batmans foes went to Markham instead of black gate. I mean I get some dudes like joker who are insane to the point that they seem to get out of proper sentencing sue to this.

But shouldn't dudes like Penguin and Black Mask who are merely crime bosses be sent their as well.

Date: 2013-02-09 04:28 am (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
Depending on the story, Penguin and Black Mask do just go to Blackgate. I think it depends on how they are portrayed. If Penguin is portrayed as an extreme Aviaphile, then he is usually in Arkham. But normal mafia Penguin goes to Blackgate.

Date: 2013-02-09 06:46 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
This. You never used to see the BTAS incarnation of Penguin in Arkham, whereas Riddler, Scarecrow, Ivy, Joker and others were all there.

Date: 2013-02-09 10:41 am (UTC)
bizarrohulk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bizarrohulk
Given their apparent ignorance of, and antipathy towards, psychiatric medicine I'm starting to wonder if DC is actually a front for the Church of Scientology.

Date: 2013-02-09 02:23 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It's an edition of the Daily Bugle newspaper, with the headline EVERYTHING AWFUL Oh God Somebody Do Something (everything awful)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
I don't think they've paid attention to anything past victorian times. ASYLUMS STRAIGHTJACKETS INSANE PADDED CELLS CRAZY?

Date: 2013-02-09 02:37 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
They're interested in the dramatic form of storytelling over literal accuracy.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:18 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: It's an edition of the Daily Bugle newspaper, with the headline EVERYTHING AWFUL Oh God Somebody Do Something (everything awful)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
Maybe, but as a mentally ill person seeing stuff like this can be really upsetting. I understand that the Joker et al aren't just mentally ill, they're evil as well, but it would be nice to see some more recognition that not all the criminally insane are like that and that treating them to the Arkham experience is not fair.

Date: 2013-02-09 03:30 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (TheBlackCat Happy Terry)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
A very valid point, and my apologies if my comment appeared dismissive.

Icon_UK offers baby!Terry hug to make up for his thoughtlessness.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:57 pm (UTC)
pyrrhocorax: A yellow salamander consort wearing robes, the Secret Wizard, smiles at you (secret wizard)
From: [personal profile] pyrrhocorax
I accept your apologies and also the adorable hug.

Date: 2013-02-09 05:58 pm (UTC)
bizarrohulk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bizarrohulk
I get that it's somewhat ... stylized, but the fact that they're not even making an effort to get the basics right makes it look more like ignorance than a deliberate narrative choice.

Case in point - "sociopathy" is not a psychiatric diagnosis. If they mean antisocial personality disorder, that's NOT sufficient to have someone declared legally insane. People with APD are quite capable of telling right from wrong and of understanding the consequences of their actions.

Someone here joked a little while ago about how few good psychologists and psychiatrists there are in the Marvel Universe, but I genuinely can't think of ANY in the DCU that aren't either evil or well-meaning idiots.

Combined with their demonisation of the mentally ill (as pyrrhocorax mentions), I find this a rather disturbing pattern.

Date: 2013-02-09 06:47 pm (UTC)
leoboiko: (Default)
From: [personal profile] leoboiko
Bah, he'll stay there like two weeks until the next mass break out.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:02 am (UTC)
ap0cryphal: Gap Toothed Smile (Default)
From: [personal profile] ap0cryphal
Hahahaha, Meredith is acting, right? He _doesn't_ want to go to Arkham? Arkham is the least secure prison in the DC universe.

Date: 2013-02-10 03:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
Maybe, but it's also full of: some of the most depraved and evil criminals in Gotham, abusive guards, staff, and doctors, and depending on the storyline, possibly also demons, angry spirits, and a portal to hell.

Date: 2013-02-10 05:38 am (UTC)
ap0cryphal: Gap Toothed Smile (Default)
From: [personal profile] ap0cryphal
it's kind of hilarious how the only prisoners to continuously escape arkham are the most depraved and evil criminals in gotham.

Arkham is less a prison and more a Supervillain factory. Insert villain, receive Supervillain. Insert Supervillain, receive Grimmer Darker Supervillain. ad infinitum.

eh, it's one of those tropes in the batman books that never quite sat right with me. bad dudes commit atrocities, and the only ones who get the short end of the stick are redshirts and civilians.

Date: 2013-02-10 04:03 am (UTC)
zechs80: (Mayuri)
From: [personal profile] zechs80
Exactly, which is why he doesn't want to end up like old Warren White did when he ended up in Arkham. Sometimes that poor security goes both ways.

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