FF #4 preview

[kevinroc]

At the end of FF #3, Scott Lang proposed that the Future Foundation's mission was to "End Doom."





(Not exactly subtle on Scott's true motivations, huh?)

Comments

[lorriek]

I'm with Scott. Doom murdered his daughter. "Ending" Doom seems reasonable to me, whatever he means by that. And as legal retribution doesn't seem feasible... well, he has to do what he has to do. And Alex seems awfully self-righteous.

[icon_uk]

If Scott wants to pursue a mission of vengeance on his own that's his business. Dragging the FF into it (including the children for heavens sake) is making it an act of outright war. Doom is a scumbag, but he's the sovereign ruler of an independent nation with incredible levels of firepower (He IS Doom after all)

And after Doom, do they go after all the leaders they don't agree with?

Alex may be stating it in a self-righteous fashion, but he is making very valid points.

[kevinroc]

Doom did murder an American citizen on American soil. Diplomatic immunity tends to be revoked for much lesser crimes than homicide (particularly since the victim was younger than 18 years of age).

You're right that this isn't something the FF kids should handle. It's actually something the Avengers should have handled. (Avenging one of their own? Who would believe such a thing from a group called "the Avengers?")

It does feel weird that Billy, Teddy, Tommy, Eli and Kate aren't there though.

[cainofdreaming]

Only one in position to revoke Doom's diplomatic immunity is Doom himself, so I kinda doubt that would happen.

[kevinroc]

What is the proper term for a foreign head of state murdering a citizen in said citizen's home country (particularly when said citizen would be legally recognized as a child)? Would that be a war crime?

[icon_uk]

No, because there would be no state of war for that to apply to.

It would, I think, be an "Act of aggression" on Doom's part and the US Government would have to agree on what the result of that act would be, probably in conjunction with the UN Security Council.

[filthysize]

That isn't how diplomatic immunity works. The country of origin is the one that decides to revoke a person's diplomatic immunity. They would have to weigh the lawbreaker's worth to the country versus the backlash against the relationship between the two countries.

Yes, murder and manslaughter are in fact protected by diplomatic immunity. It's happened plenty of times, where a diplomat would be drunk driving in a foreign country and kill someone--the worst thing the country can do to them is to ban them from returning. During an anti-Gaddafi protest in London back in the 80s, someone from the Libyan embassy shot at protesters and wounded a dozen people, also killing a police officer doing crowd control. It was a huge deal that led to the severing of political ties, but was anyone ever charged and convicted of the murder? Nope.

And we're talking about Doom here, who is considered a monarch on top of being head of state. So he actually has sovereign immunity, which states that he cannot legally do anything wrong.

Let's say the Queen of England goes on a joyride in America and runs over a couple of children, killing them. There is absolutely zero chance that the American justice system would prosecute her.

[icon_uk]

Could he be legally barred from entering a country?

[filthysize]

I think so? The US declared the sitting President of Austria at the time a persona non grata once. I think it's been implied though that Doom has some very powerful friends in Washington.

[kevinroc]

They'd have to be worse than Gyrich to not even do that considering the attachment the super hero community has to the Langs.

Which, considering the way governments typically act in comics, wouldn't surprise me at all.

(Really, though. This isn't something governments should do. This is really something the Avengers should have done since Stature was one of their own.)

[shadowpsykie]

they actually did this well in Justice League i think.

By relinquishing his Throne, Ocean Master gave up the protection of diplomatic immunity. (or maybe it was Arthur who revoked it) ether way it's the whole Richard II thing. Only the King can uncrown the king... or something like that..... okay i am lost now....

[razsolo]

I hadn't really thought about it to that extent, but you're right....this isn't something that he should be enlisting children to help him with, and for that matter I would hope Medusa has reservations about the queen of the Inhumans being involved with this kind of premeditated assault on a world ruler as well...

[jlbarnett]

Doom is a supervillain. In my mind that should trump ruler of a nation. If the Red Skull were to conquer Germany no one would let him stay ruler

[icon_uk]

Doom is a ruler who is considered to be a supervillain (and is) though he has also been welcomed back by his people after at least one of the attempts to depose and replace him.

The Red Skull would be a villain who became a ruler.

Should that make a difference? Nope, but it would, I think.

Hmmm.... would Latveria be on the UN Security Council I wonder? Since the only reason Doom wouldn't have atomic weaponry is that he has other, more efficient weapons that make an A-Bomb look like a cap gun... AND they'd be KirbyTech

[atom_punk]

Is Latveria actually on the UN in-universe? I think the fact that they are lead by a person who has lead several highly public attacks on other nations would make it a bit of a pariah in the field of international diplomacy. And I figure that with Doom's technology the nation would have no need for imports so economic sanctions would probably be useless and military action might actually end up getting support by the UN Security Council.

Then again, North Korea's still allowed to be represented in the UN despite all the crazy nonsense they pull in real life, so who knows? :P

As for Latveria on the UN Security Council, I presume you mean as one of the permanent members? I imagine not, since the five permanent members were the big powers that remained after WWII in addition to having nuclear capability. And to my knowledge, Latveria didn't really materialize as a superpower until Doom took control, which I presume happened after the formation of the UNSC

[auggie18]

They had a representative at the UN during Disassembled. Tony Stark tried to kill him on live tv.

[jlbarnett]

Doom does want to influence the world though. Someone advertising how great his country is is something he'd want. Showing off some of his tech is something he'd want.

[protogarrett]

"And after Doom, do they go after all the leaders they don't agree with?"

If they're known terrorists who keep their people in fear? Yes. Yes, that's exactly what superheroes should do. For fuck's sake, after the Venom Bomb why didn't the U.S. just start military actions against Doom? Why hasn't so many other countries in the MU MANY MANY MANY times over?

[jmacq1]

Because if governments in comic books started acting sensible, realistic, and competent, there wouldn't be any stories left to tell. The Supervillains would all have been rounded up and executed or their power-bases crushed into oblivion (or both), and aside from the occasional cosmic menace cropping up, Earth would be utopia.

[mrstatham]

Because the MU's citizenry are a bunch of idiots who had the nerve to tell Nick Fury and his Secret Warriors saving them from Skrulls that they WANTED the Skrulls to be there. Or at least, groups of citizens did. This is how thick their skulls are. How can we expect more sensible action from a government of these people?

[protogarrett]

But yes, involving the kids is not so cool. But, then again, we've got teenagers involved left and right in the M.U.

You know what I had an issue with? Eiko in Final Fantasy 9. She's five and the party is cool bringing her along to fight dragons and other monsters? REALLY?!

[lorriek]

Yeah, I'm okay with them trying to remove evil dictator murderers from power. Some things trump sovereign nation, and it's not like Doom was democratically elected. As long as Scott doesn't involve the children in outright murder (I'm fine with him murdering Doom, I just wouldn't want the kids to plan it or see it), I don't see the problem with them helping to remove him from power.

[filthysize]

Wouldn't it be pretty hypocritical of them if they only go after foreign dictators but look the other way when the American President, say, kill children in drone attacks? That's the sort of thing that you can justify in political debates, but when someone actually takes action against one but not the other, it could have nightmarish ramifications. At best, other countries would put pressure on the US to go after the superheroes. At worst, another world war might break out.

The logical endgame for the FF or the Avengers to do stuff like that is to become the Authority.

[silverhammerman]

Even just going by what the governments' done in the comics, the US government has done stuff like try to set up registration and internment camps for mutants, as well as literally building giant genocidal robots. And the Canadian government at this point actually has a rep for being cartoonishly evil. Really they've done stuff that's just as bad as Doom, so if you start applying any kind of logic to the situation it gets confusing and ruins things.

[lorriek]

Was the American President targeting children in said drone attacks? Children die in war and military actions. It is tragic, but its not necessarily illegal or a war crime.

[filthysize]

That's arguable depending on who you ask. For example, President Bush, VP Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were all convicted of war crimes in a trial last year for condoning the use of torture, but obviously a lot of people in the US don't agree, and nobody's actually going to do anything to them because of who they are.

I mean, come on, you take out Doom, and things are gonna be all cozy? No, Kristoff or Lucia von Bardas or whoever else would take over and be just as bad, and use it to rally other countries against the US. And all of a sudden, US soldiers have to go to war because Scott Lang's got a personal vendetta. It's just a bad, baaaad idea, which is why a lot of "Superman turns bad and becomes a fascist" stories usually start with him threatening foreign dictators.

[kevinroc]

Doom's actions also inadvertently created Kang the Conqueror. So, y'know, a lot of blood has already been spilled because of Cassie's death.

[auggie18]

He's okayed the Sentinal program a few times, and Sentinals do tend to target children. Mutant children, though. So maybe the public gives him a pass.

[jlbarnett]

there's a difference between accidents and intentional actions

[goattoucher]

Doom seems to have a bit of Joker Immunity in the MU. That said, where the opportunities to end the Joker with a bullet to the head or a snapped neck have been plentiful, taking out Doom has been established as no easy feat.

Frankly, in a match between the people in that room and Doom, I'd put odds on Doom every day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

That said, why Thor didn't peel the tuna can off him and smite him into oblivion after what he pulled on the Asgardians is beyond me.

[vitruvian23]

Since when was the Future Foundation ever going to *inflict* any of its inventions and developments on anybody, as opposed to offering them freely to anybody who wanted to use them?

[silverhammerman]

I'm with Alex if only because Scott's mission pretty much has to be futile in the end. Doom is flat out too cool to stay dead, even if he did get killed here, that's just mean that in 2-5 years we get a story where Doom escapes hell and takes back his throne, and in the meantime we'd probably get some nonsense about Kristoff Vernard.
Not only that, but Alex does make a fair point about the ethics of it, killing Doom might be arguably justified, but the FF of all people aren't in any position to make that judgement call, and the organization intended to help people, not wreaking righteous vengeance on the wicked.
I think it's cool that Scott is clearly just jumping at the chance to get revenge, and not actually right in his intentions.

[amaniwolf]

I can understand his desire for bloody revenge, I don't agree with him dragging the kids in on this or using their intelligence to get his way, but I can understand wanting to kill the man, that killed your child. This isn't about politics, saving the world or preventing some big evil, it's revenge. He killed someone you loved more then life itself, you want him to pay,...it blinds you to everything else. I think this is an important point for the character, which way will he fall?

[zechs80]

Scott should just relax and wait three or four more years for his daughter to be resurrected. Heck watch him about to kill Doom and suddenly, BAM Cassie is alive and walks in on him.

[raspberryrain]

Would that be too self-aware?

[atom_punk]

The comic might just gain sentience from the amount of meta in such a scenario XD

There's self-referential humor and then there's acknowledging one of the biggest cliches in comic books and timing it in-universe to occur at the perfect moment.

[icon_uk]

There was the notable scene in a PAD issue of Incredible Hulk, where Nick Fury is dead, and the surviving Howling Commando's are all joking at the funeral about how they know he's faked it and he'll be back, and it's not until Logan comes in and gives his respects to the coffin, that they suddenly go quiet and realise that this IS final and Fury IS dead.

(Of course he isn't dead, but I think that was a deliberate effort by Marvel to actually kill him so he was, as far as PAD's story was concerned)

Also he used the same dramatic device in X-Factor, when Siryn flatly refuses to accept that Banshee was killed by Vulcan and AFAIK still expects him to return home soon.

[chrisdv]

She accepted her father's death when she first gave birth to Madrox's son, before they found out it was really a dupe.

[lieut_kettch]

Think about this, Alex: Cassie was around Julie's age when Doom killed her.

[chieflewal]

The whole time the kid was talking I wanted Lang to slap him and say "My daughter is DEEEEAAAAAAAD!!!"