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Date: 2013-06-19 10:14 pm (UTC)
zabilac: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zabilac
Oh joy. Superheroes arguing with each other. Just what I LOVE to spend my money on.

Date: 2013-06-19 10:19 pm (UTC)
protogarrett: (Default)
From: [personal profile] protogarrett
This issue was a LOT of setup and dialogue for the (hopefully) big payoff battles.

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Date: 2013-06-19 10:18 pm (UTC)
protogarrett: (Default)
From: [personal profile] protogarrett
How dare you murder kid apocalypse. Uhh, he's killed a LOT more people than that. In fact, a LOT of Avengers have killed people.

Also, didn't the evil Xorn kill everyone in New York? Is that not public knowledge yet to the MU?

Also, the Horsemen: Grim Reaper, Daken, Banshee, and Sentry. Christ, this is the backup for Sentry? It's like sending in tricycles to back up a tank. Still, interesting collection. Not one I would have ever guessed.

Complaints aside, I liked this issue a lot. Great book so far.

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Date: 2013-06-19 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Heh, either Remender had this conversation in his head the whole time while he wrote Alex's speech, or he heard all the talking points from the fallout and added them in.

Also, solid issue, some REALLY interesting set-up, but...I dig Kang and all, but this thing's already making my brain hurt.

Date: 2013-06-19 11:00 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
This does slightly reek of "No one understood the impassioned speech I wrote, I'd better explain it in a LOT more detail... and highlight why I think they all got it wrong"

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Date: 2013-06-19 10:53 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
Remender should have just had Wanda tell Rogue to go get drenched in Hobo-piss; since he seemed to love that rebuttal on Twitter.

BUT haha, this happened far enough from Alex's speech that I think Remender wrote this up as a rebuttal from all the hate he was getting for his poorly thought out writing.

Thor's defence of Wolverine is god awful. And the Avengers have really shakey policy on who they kill and when... since they do it a lot.
Edited Date: 2013-06-19 10:55 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-19 10:58 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Robot)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
Except mutants have had a history and a culture. They've had distinct societies (the Morlock sewers, Genosha, District X, Utopia, etc,) distinct leaders, even distinct art, music and fashion.

This is a weird conversation and one I'm willing to bet wouldn't have happened if there wasn't such a loud backlash against Alex's speech.

Date: 2013-06-19 11:35 pm (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yes, especially post-Utopia. 90% of the mutants on Earth spent a year or two as a group!

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Date: 2013-06-19 11:20 pm (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Agree 100% with Wanda. She put into words what I've been thinking all along. It's why I didn't have a rage filled freak out moment when it happened, yet I feel like no matter what Rogue and Wanda will be at odds no matter what and honestly getting real fuckin tired of the attacks on Wanda, especially from Rogue. She's always been a favorite character of mine and definitely among my top 5 in X-Men characters, but....jesus woman you are fucking the goddamn Master of Magnetism! The guy who tried to kill you and the X-Men multiple times and tried to commit genocide. If you can forgive all that. If you can constantly put up with letting Mystique back into the X-Men when she betrays you time after time after time, you can let this shit go!

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trigger warning: Slurs.

From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie - Date: 2013-06-19 11:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: trigger warning: Slurs.

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Re: trigger warning: Slurs.

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Re: trigger warning: Slurs.

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Re: trigger warning: Slurs.

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Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

Date: 2013-06-19 11:20 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (Bitch Please)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Mods, i know i am walking a fine line here, but.... this thread is about "words" and thier significance and power. i do not mean to offend, but i know that these are hot button issues and i feel that it is warranted here.

okay.... okay...

i am....


okay i am gay, and latino, living in california. gay rights and immigration reform and everything surrounding that are topics i deal with everyday....

i tend to agree with Rogue on several points. I do think Wanda is rationalizing. I do think that both she and Alex are at least in some part self loathing.

i agree that people should see people before powers. its also interesting that they brought up the fact that people fear mutants, but not the FF the Avengers, and (now and then) spider-man...

but there are also wrong points to be made... being a mutant is not the same thing as being born romani or catholic, or jewish, because you can choose religion, you can't choose how you are born. (yes there are some intersects i know)

you can be born black, or white, or asian, or latino, or gay, or yes, mutant.

and this whole idea that mutants have not shared history other than persecution? Bull, Wasp was just inventing a fashion line BASED off mutant culture. there is a mutant history museum in San Fran, and yes, a part of that history is shared persecution.

Wonderman is also confusing the issue. mutants are not the ones (for the most part) doing the othering, it's the humans who use the term mutants (more time than not) to other. Mutants take the word and use it with pride. like homosexuals use words like gay, or lesbian, or queer, or dyke. they are words that can be used to "other" people, but they are also words people take on to show pride in what they are.

I know i am walking a fine line here, because even being part of the gay community i know there is a lot of debate using some of these words. The word Queer for instance is a hot button word. There are people that self identify as queer within the community, but there are people within the community that believe this is an offensive word. I personally don't believe this is an offensive word unless it is being used to offend "Beat the queer" for instance or "You fucking queer". those are meant to be used as weapons. But they can also be used as armor "I am Queer and i make no appoligies for that" or "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!"

I have a lot of problems with this storyline, only because while i feel that this is a topic that needs to be discussed, and where better to show the different sides of a debate both from within and withot a given community, than in a book with "mixed" people. But the way this conversation is being had.... it's coming off very... un even. the pro mutants are coming off agressive and defensive (in some ways they have every right too) and the anti "mutants" are coming off uninformed or self loathing.

the debate being had is messy and just... uncomfortable, and not in a good way. not in a "makes me start re thinking things" but in a "this... is wrong... this is a farce... this is a minstrel show...."

i desperately wanted this to be a good series... but it's coming off preachy and what is worst... i have NO IDEA what the point of this sermon is..... i really hope it's not coming up on Alex's side because... just... no....


okay, i am sorry i'll stop now, now it just feels like i am rambling....

Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

Date: 2013-06-20 12:19 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
From what I saw Wasp is starting a clothing line based on the X-men. And the X-men's style is the same as the FF and the Avengers. You could just as easily claim she's making a clothing line based on superhero culture

Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Re: Trigger Warning: Language, slurs

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Date: 2013-06-19 11:55 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
It can be argued that most of the X-Men got their powers as randomly as any other superhero. They were "victims" of fate as much as Peter Parker.

As far as any self-loathing goes... Well, having these powers can be cool. It's so many other people, aliens and giant purple robots attacking you because of those powers that can cause the "self-loathing" problem. Yes, being part of the X-Men can be great. It's all the fighting to protect a world that hates and fears you (for good reasons) that can get to you after a while.

Date: 2013-06-20 01:35 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
"It's all the fighting to protect a world that hates and fears you (for good reasons) that can get to you after a while."

Not just that, for a lot of mutants it can be pretty sucky just being a mutant, ignoring the hate they get. I mean, there's mutants who're miserable because of their powers, such as Wither (the guy that couldn't touch organic matter without it decaying, who accidentally killed his own dad and mutilated the girl he liked by holding her hand), or Rogue herself depending on how the writer is feeling, or even Cyclops sometimes nearly has panic attacks due to his fear of his powers and he was the face of the mutant population. The X-Books LOVE making mutants with powers you'd hate to have.

I also disagree with the 'for good reason' bit, but that's not important.

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Date: 2013-06-20 12:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
watch all these questions about why people are afraid of mutants not superheroes lead to people deciding they should be afraid of superheroes too.

Date: 2013-06-20 12:41 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
they should. and then the others will FINALLY know what it's like.. only they won't

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Date: 2013-06-20 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Did Remender just imply that Romani is a religion?

Date: 2013-06-20 12:40 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (not amused)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
that was sloppy wasn't it...

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Date: 2013-06-20 12:57 am (UTC)
skemono: I read dead racists (Default)
From: [personal profile] skemono
Don't extrapolate your own version--listen, and speak to, what the man actually said.

Given how deaf Remender was to criticism, I can't really read Wanda's line here as anything more than him saying "All my critics are wrong and I didn't write that and you should pay attention to what I wrote instead of pointing out the awful implications of my words!"

Date: 2013-06-20 01:52 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
asking that of an English major ( let alone anyone capable of close reading) is.... Ugh....

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Date: 2013-06-20 01:22 am (UTC)
ablackraptor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ablackraptor
Ironically, I actually got what he was trying to say originally. But, combined with the 'hobo piss' remark, this honestly doesn't endear Remender's person very well. I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say about him without getting in trouble, but jebus, is this childish. Remender's acting like a bad fanfic writer here, he needs to quit it while he still has self respect.

On the plus side, kudos to SOMEBODY calling Logan out for a change. He's became such a hypocrite recently and in so many different writer's hands, I'm slowly starting to hate him, so its nice to see someone call him on it besides Cyclops.

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Date: 2013-06-20 01:27 am (UTC)
goggle_kid: (Default)
From: [personal profile] goggle_kid
Hey they're actually doing something interesting with the "mutants as the every minority" concept. A bit heavy handed and awkward but I approve.

Date: 2013-06-20 01:51 am (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
it works, but then that parallels the LGBT community as well. We are represented in every minority. Yet we understand that we carry *multiple* identities.

I don't know why the mutants haven't brought that up; yes there powers are all completely different to one another, but that's the unique definer that comes along with the mutant identity. 'Mutant' isn't the only identity they carry, it's one of them and they should get people to respect that, rather than ignore it.

Being a mutant *isn't* the same as being gay, but mutants *do* have something that connects them all - the X-gene. At least, the Sentinels see it that way.

So I'm not completely sure what Remender is going for.

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Date: 2013-06-20 04:19 am (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Oh Uncanny Avengers how I love thee. Let me count the ways.
1) Wolverine not making excuse for the action of his team, even though Fantomex killed the kid against his wishes? Check.
2) Someone finally having a conversation about how bizare it is that the Marvel public is okay with meta-humans and aliens but hates mutants? Check.
3)X-men not treating Captain America like he walks on water? Check.
4)An actual adult conversation about race/minorities that doesn't treat the people with different viewpoints on the topic as sell outs/phobics/uncle toms? Check and double check.(As a black conservative the lack of such conversations in comics dealing with this issues has bothered me for years)

Bonus Points for Thor being awesome. I love the fact that since he doesn't represent mutants or humans he just gets to be Awesome all the time.

Date: 2013-06-20 04:34 am (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Does anyone else find it somewhat odd that most the bad guys' they're fighting are now either "good" guys or just not active anymore? And why are they fighting baddies who, in most part, have just had their own personal vendettas where they would barely encounter them, even if the chance would come up they have to face them as a team (remember how well the Avengers were to other superheroes in New York when some major disaster happens in the city in THEIR book, like the X-Men {ironically}?

Shouldn't they have protocols for Dr. Doom or Thanos? AIM Agents? Or just a scenario where they have to fight rouge heroes, like Red Skull with super powered weapons or The Hulk going crazy on Earth again? Wouldn't those be more realistic threats that "Earth's Mightest Heroes" would have to be training, considering that always seem to train, but yet get surprise by a situation that was NOT part of the routine?

And what are Wanda's powers this time? I learned that the "Chaos Magic" she tapped into didn't exist NOW exists again (whats with Marvel and things like that getting past radar) because Strange lied about it not existing, but Wanda's powers originally started out causing bad luck which may or may not be part of mutant abilities... or has that all changed by the "classy" moves Marvel like to use...

Date: 2013-06-20 04:57 am (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
For your own sake, treat Wanda the way we treat Magik -- her powers are mutant born but are a *gateway* into the magic side of things. So she does both.

Mutant and Magician. The latter I believe was used to explain how she fell into madness (messing around with Chaos Magic - by her own will - then it back firing on her).

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Scarlet Witch v. Wanda Session #9

Date: 2013-06-20 05:21 am (UTC)
blue_bolt: Fat Watcher (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
I've decided that Ucanny Avengers is really just Wanda and Rogue fighting screaming at each other.

I do not like the premise of this series :(

Date: 2013-06-20 06:45 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
"Having powers born into us is the only thing we inherently share. Well, that and we're all vulnerable to the Legacy virus. And we're all resistant to the Transmode virus and Sublime. And we all get power boosts from drugs like Kick and Banshee. And we all have the ability to secrete Mutant Growth Hormone. And mildly accelerated healing. And we can all be detected by Cerebro and restrained by inhibitor collars. And our species is constantly being empowered, depowered, studied and manipulated by assorted alien races and cosmic beings. But aside from being far more biologically distinctive and uniform than any real-world ethnic group, we're nothing alike!"

Also, it's very privileged-y to describe mutancy as a delivery system for superpowers, when lots of mutants (like Ugly John and most of the Morlocks) don't have powers; they're just weird-looking, or outright disabled. Silly Wanda.
Edited Date: 2013-06-20 12:21 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-20 03:55 pm (UTC)
theflames: The Joker best expression. (Default)
From: [personal profile] theflames
It's telling though, she sounds like a woman who knows very little of the Mutant community, since she hasn't participated in *being* apart of that community. She's a mutant, but an ignorant one.

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Date: 2013-06-20 07:37 am (UTC)
monkey12: (Default)
From: [personal profile] monkey12
Somebody help me out here, please. I was on a break from comics when House of M came out, but my understanding is that when Wanda uttered the infamous "No more mutants" line, she was under a lot of emotional duress over what had just happened to her children. As in, her children kind of just blooped out of existence. Is that correct?

I'm only asking because I seem to see truckloads of hate and scorn dumped on Wanda for something that she's accepted responsibility for, but I don't see anyone calling attention to the fact, were any other mother of two recently deceased children in her place, it would be really, REALLY hard to not make decisions entirely out of despondence. Treating her as if she made mutants vanish while in anything even remotely approaching a stable mental state feels a little hollow.

Also: When Wanda said "No more mutants," did the mutants actually die, or did they just lose their mutant abilities (which could have quickly lead to the deaths of some of them, I suppose)?

Thanks in advance for any assistance on this.

Date: 2013-06-20 08:20 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
The latter. Mutants all over the world woke up without their powers. Some where ecstatic, some were despondent... And a lot of them died, either because their bodies couldn't survive without their powers keeping them alive, or because they were somewhere lethal to humans when it happened - say, a couple kilometers up in the air, or deep underwater.

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Date: 2013-06-20 12:09 pm (UTC)
korvar: Picture of me (Korvar) done in a cartoon style (Default)
From: [personal profile] korvar
I'm vaguely disappointed the fight turned out to be a simulation - it would have been hilarious if the argument was happening in a real battle, with the villains going "Excuse me? Could we concentrate here? This is some of my best monologuing..."

Re: On the Roma issue

Date: 2013-06-20 02:31 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
that explains the Romani issue, but the issue still misses the point entirely....

Re: On the Roma issue

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Date: 2013-06-20 04:58 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
I dearly love them both, but Anna's got a more level head on her shoulders than Wanda will ever have.

But why not use the example of the American deaf community? They have a quasi-genetic link, a history of persecution, and a culture they are fiercely protective of, sometimes to questionable lengths.

But Wanda knows the Roma are a culture and an ethnicity, not a religion. As far as religion goes, they are Catholics with their own favorite saints.

Date: 2013-06-20 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
Why is Thor still the only likable character in this series so far?

Date: 2013-06-21 07:08 pm (UTC)
bruinsfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bruinsfan
Because even Remender can't dispel the amount of awesome he's built up over more than 50 years in just a few issues?

Date: 2013-06-21 09:22 am (UTC)
xamda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] xamda
Help! I'm drowning in a sea of exposition!

Date: 2013-06-21 09:37 am (UTC)
bariman: by perletwo (Default)
From: [personal profile] bariman
Irrelevant question: Why are they having that particular training simulation? It looks to be in Tron-like city (or possibly Marvel 2099), against three Spider-Man villains. And Doc Ock is dead/driving around Spider-Man's body, and last I checked Norman Osborn was in a coma and the Venom symbiote was being used by Flash Thompson for the U.S. Army. I mean, it looks cool, and that "oh crap" face on Goblin is funny, but why?

Date: 2013-06-21 03:38 pm (UTC)
lorriek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lorriek
I love how the woman who singlehandedly destroyed the nascent mutant culture that had been established prior to M Day claims there is no such thing as mutant culture. And who also says she doesn't want people to associate her with people who change the entire planet without consultation. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Obviously Remender wants us to agree with Wanda as she's one of his mouthpieces, but she just comes off as self delusional, self hating, and ignorant.
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