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With both Dick and Bruce working together in the simulation, they are finally able to get a best case scenario to play out with a result of beating the Heretic and saving Damian.



Later, Alfred is alone in the cave and decides to enter the simulation on his own, as it plays out the moments before Damian left the cave that night. While Alfred still gave Damian his suit, and willingly allowed him to crack his way into the armory.



Date: 2013-08-23 05:40 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I'm still utterly bemused how Tomasi was given the shitty job of 'hey, you actually like this kid character, now mop up the aftermath of his death' and managed to pull it off. Bruce has a lot of apologising to do, I think, but I like the acknowledgement that it wasn't just about Bruce, and as much as Damian could just be "*Tt, Pennyworth," he clearly meant as much to Alfred as he did Bruce. And I like that it's maybe Bruce's oldest friend and ally who finally gets through to him. I think Dick's overall message works, too; Yes, it stings a hell of a lot more because it's his own child he had to bury, but it's precisely why - in the face of Talia's meta-fourth-wall-influenced bullshit - Bruce needs to carry on.

And I think that was my problem with Inc; It treated the death as just another story beat. With a character like Damian, I think it needed something like this. Maybe not five or six parts long, but it needed dwelling on, and when you have another writer doing that and not the writer who killed the character, something is wrong, I think.

Date: 2013-08-23 06:00 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Let's review the circumstances that led up to Damian's death:

-Talia outright tells Batman that she will force him to choose between saving his city and saving his son

-Batman, hilariously, appears to not even acknowledge the choice, and keeps batmanning on after Talia

-Talia, for her part, makes zero attempt to get at Damian, and instead focuses her efforts on making Batman watch as his city is destroyed

-Damian, following his father's footsteps, leaves the safety of the Batcave and fights the Heretic and somehow manages to get murdered while both of his parents are busy not giving a shit about him

Batman is a completely terrible father, and for the characters to conclude that Damian's death means he needs to keep on being Batman is both terrible and absolutely inevitable. He's like a ghoul who feeds off the dead.

Date: 2013-08-23 07:15 am (UTC)
alan_smithee: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alan_smithee
The problem with all this is that the whole character and context of Batman isn't designed to handle such weighty issues and if you concentrate on issues like this too long you start to realise how silly it all is - especially since there can never be a lasting change or growth, Batman can never realise that taking out young children to fight serial killers is not such a hot idea. At best, as Sadoeuphemist points out, it makes the characters seem like monsters.

Date: 2013-08-23 07:28 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Oh no, I disagree completely. Batman is absolutely designed to handle these issues, it's his foundation: his parents died, and he became a bat. If you take away Batman reacting to the death of loved ones, his character becomes a lot flimsier. This is not to say that he handles it in a realistic, or even a healthy manner, but he's a comic book character. They can be as grotesque and as monstrous as you like.

Date: 2013-08-23 07:19 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Robin/Damian Wayne)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Honestly. In terms of dealing with the aftermath of losing someone you love, I feel like the arc in this book has got it right and so tired of people calling Bruce a dick when he lost his son. I've been in that dark place because I've lost someone I loved. I don't need to be told if I'm being a dick. Let me get the emotions out. Same reason why I get annoyed at people calling Roy an asshole for his behavior in issue 2 of Rise of Arsenal. As much as I hate that series (and god do I...) I had 0 problem with his outburst of anger (I repeat, 0 problem. Got a problem, take it up with someone else because I could give a shit). Really want to piss someone off? Tell them to calm down when they're already angry. Let someone grieve and get it out, we can cross the bridge of apologizing later.

Rant over. Back to this book. I've been enjoying this aftermath and if anything, my favorite part is Bruce damn near crossing the line of becoming a villain just to bring his son back by capturing Frankenstein. To see him go through these stages of grief was honestly heartbreaking and understandable. As far as comics go, I'm glad for this arc. Something that annoys me more than character death is how quickly it's gotten over. Let the impact hit and run its course at least.

Date: 2013-08-23 11:31 am (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
I will be honest with you. It was a straight up trust issue. I have seen Batman have all his character growth thrown away and be reset to generic asshole some many times that I just didn't trust them not to do it again.

I was wrong. As much as I wish Damien hadn't been killed, his death and Batman's response was handled very well. I just didn't have the trust in DC to enjoy the ride here.

Date: 2013-08-23 08:16 am (UTC)
thosefew: bored death (Default)
From: [personal profile] thosefew
I like that it took Batman 448 tries and help to 'win', and Alfred got it first try.

Date: 2013-08-23 11:30 am (UTC)
pteppic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pteppic
That's possibly a potent message for who was truly to blame for Damien's death.

Date: 2013-08-23 01:59 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
You mean the guy who murdered him?

Date: 2013-08-23 02:41 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
That actually makes it worse IMHO, at least for Alfred.

Bruce needed 448 variations to find the solution, and that only with help from Dick.

Alfred knows exactly how he could have done it, he's always known, and this just confirms it. He had the simplest solution to saving Damian's life and he didn't take it. (Though of course, the deathcount if he had would probably have been astronomical)

Date: 2013-08-23 10:51 am (UTC)
icon_uk: Sad Nightwing (Sad Nightwing)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
There's a scene in a New Mutants issue just after Doug died where we discover that Rahne has been spending long periods in the Danger Room recreating the events around his shooting, and has found something like fourteen ways she could have saved him, and still has to come to terms with the fact that A) That's not a particularly healthy way to grieve and B) It doesn't change anything, and she still has to deal with the loss in the real world (as it were).

Somehow that moved me more than this does (The fact that Rahne was just a kid perhaps worked better in terms of overwrought emotion seeking closure). That's not to say this hasn't got it's touching moments, but I dunno, this left me colder than I expected it to.

So Bruce finds a way that would have saved Damian? Ultimately, so what? Damian is still dead and Bruce still has to deal with that loss, and I don't see why a succesful "What if...?" scenario makes him feel any better (or at least moves him along on the bereavement path). Maybe I'm missing something fundamental there though.

Also the resolution to the scenario being Dick killing... whatever the big guy was called just doesn't "feel" right. Yes, Dick would probably have done it to save Damian, but to have the game changing event be someone acting contrary to their entire approach to heroics seems off.

I'm not sure, perhaps it's the lack of acknowledgement between Dick and Bruce that it wasn't Bruce that made Damian Robin, it was Dick and, not to lessen Bruce's grief over the loss of a son (though in fairness, one he hardly knew or spent much time with), an acknowldgement that Bruce recognises that Dick had lost his kid brother and partner would have been nice. Instead it's all about Bruce, and HIS loss etc etc.

On the other hand it's nice to see Dick serving as the voice of, relative sanity, and the moment with Alfred's scenario is also very touching.

Also worth mentioning is how the art re-stages some of the scenes, with Damian's last plea to his mother changing from Burnham's "Lost little boy pleading" to Gleasons "Badass kid, defiant to the end") (Wish I could find the comparison picture I found on tumblr, but homefully someone else's google-fu is better than mine.

Date: 2013-08-23 02:34 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Also the resolution to the scenario being Dick killing... whatever the big guy was called just doesn't "feel" right. Yes, Dick would probably have done it to save Damian, but to have the game changing event be someone acting contrary to their entire approach to heroics seems off.
That might be the point though. since it's not something either of them would do (he wouldn't even kill Talia after the fact) maybe it just further proves there was nothing he could do.

Date: 2013-08-23 02:38 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Perhaps, but then I feel that that is important enough a point that it should have been acknowledged.

"The only way to save him would have been for us to do the one thing we know we can't do, at least not and continue being who we are."

Date: 2013-08-23 11:56 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
...Wow. I've been too focused on Bruce's reactions to all this that I haven't realized, "oh, wait, he's not the only one hurting, too."

I wonder if this part of what Tomasi planned for this arc. Really nice surprise.

Also, does this mean Batman and Nightwing could have saved Robin?


Date: 2013-08-23 12:16 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
With the benefit of hindsight, probably yes.

Date: 2013-08-23 02:18 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Thanks! Also: oh, man. That's probably gonna eat on Bruce these coming years.

Or at least until Ra's get the Pits fired up again and Damian comes back in a black biker jacket and
an exploding red lollipop helmet.

Whichever comes first.

Date: 2013-08-23 02:24 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Sorry to double-post, but I just had a thought:

A) What if Damian rescued Batman first?
B) What if he had flew over directly to Talia? She was on the penthouse, wasn't she?

Date: 2013-08-23 02:35 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Sad (We'll meet again Tiger)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
okay... the alfred part broke me... thanks for that..

Date: 2013-08-23 04:47 pm (UTC)
sianmink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sianmink
Batman: 447 tries

Alfred Motherfucking Pennyworth: first try

Date: 2013-08-23 06:07 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
As I said above, that's not something Alfred will take any comfort in, since it means HIS way of saving Damian was simple, obvious and would have worked, and he didn't use it.

Date: 2013-08-23 06:23 pm (UTC)
sianmink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sianmink
Only with hindsight could Alfred have known, thus it's not reasonable to assume he would or could have stopped Damien without this knowledge.

Date: 2013-08-23 07:50 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Only with hindsight could anyone have saved him, so none of the scenarios have any relevance at all when you get down to it.

Date: 2013-08-23 05:26 pm (UTC)
lieut_kettch: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lieut_kettch
Ack. Someone shove the kid into a Lazarus Pit already! Then he can come back in a few years as Ibn al Xu'ffasch and Bruce and the Batclan can try and convince him to do a face-heel-face turn.

Date: 2013-08-28 12:41 am (UTC)
althechi: (revel in excrement)
From: [personal profile] althechi
So, basically a really condensed form of A Lonely Place of Dying, minus any new Robins?

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