Date: 2015-08-13 12:05 pm (UTC)
crinos: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crinos
Okay, um stupid question: Why is Batman fighting Tieflings?

Date: 2015-08-13 01:24 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
This is one of the gangs in Gotham that Batman is tracking down in order to find out information about the arms dealer that is granting gang leaders superpowers called Mr. Bloom.

Date: 2015-08-13 01:41 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada
Hey Bat-bunny maybe if you didn't have your face exposed you'd be less vulnerable to things like standing inside an oven!

Also, is he murdering them because he's just careless or did a more elegant plan fall through like it usually does?

Date: 2015-08-13 01:57 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
He's killing them because he is Jim Gordon and as a police officer, he is willing to use deadly force in self-defense.

It is actually really interesting how well they merged it with the story, with not having people scream about it, yet making it a clear in the narrative.

Date: 2015-08-13 02:04 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada

Oh obviously he's ALLOWED to murder them, but I'm more curious how that became necessary to him.

Date: 2015-08-13 02:33 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I don't think it became necessary for him, and he doesn't really consider murder since it is in self-defense while on the line of duty. The scene shows a certain police officer's mentality in that if someone is shooting at me, I am allowed to shoot back if no civilians are put in to danger, instead of Batman's obsessive drive to not to kill.

It is a scene I felt really well brought out one of the core differences between how Jim and Bruce approach being Batman.

Date: 2015-08-13 02:42 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada

Well said.

Date: 2015-08-14 07:07 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
But if Batman shares the exact same POV of a committed, honest policeman, what's the point of Batman?

Date: 2015-08-14 02:47 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I'll be honest, I don't quite get the question as one could similarly ask that if Dick as Batman smiles and is cheerier, what is the point of him being Batman since he isn't a carbon copy of Bruce.

This Batman works as a member of the police force, so it is natural that they would be a committed, honest policeman. And by changing the approach, they can examine the role of Batman from a different perspective, which I assume was their intent.

Date: 2015-08-14 04:02 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I would say that perhaps the single most important aspect of Batman, much more than his manner, is that Batman exists as a fantasy vigilante.

Batman operates outside the law specifically because he believes that Justice (as a sort of abstract ideal) is more important than the Law, which is limited by checks and balances. Batman has none of these, and it's only because Bruce chooses to operate within a strictly defined, rigidly enforced set of personal parameters (of which NONE is more important than "No killing") that he is seen as admirable and that Jim even tolerates him.

The relationship between Jim and Batman was based largely on that difference. Jim embodied the law, Batman embodied justice. Both ideals of their chosen mission.

If Batman is now a duly appointed and regulated member of the GCPD, then he's no longer Batman the vigilante, he's Batman the cop. If the only thing that differentiates Batman from any other police officer is that he wears pointy ears and has some bat-themed gizmo's, then what Batman stands for is so fundamentally changed, I'm not sure I see the point.

It's even worse when THIS Batman kills, which is what a cop would be expected to do in certain circumstances, but to have Gordon do it, knowing Batman as well as he did, it seems like outright betrayal. He should feel completely devastated about killing anyone as Batman EVER, because whilst it's what a cop would do, it's never what Batman would.

Date: 2015-08-14 09:13 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
My counter-argument to that is that your most important aspect of Batman is only valid when Bruce is Batman. The moment for example when it is Dick, that argument undergoes a subtle shift. Similarly to that, everything you discuss after that is still from perspective of Bruce being Batman.

This story takes another twist, here they ask what if Batman was a law enforcement officer, what he was a cop operating under the department. How would that affect it? How would that Batman be? What if Batman wasn't someone who hadn't spent his life to become the master of combat but was instead some relying on street-level tactics, police training and technology?

For us to be able to ask those questions, we have to allow changes to being Batman and be willing to ask what that means. And the answer can't be that Batman needs to be carbon-copy of the same man in order to remain Batman, because in that case he can never have a successor.

Date: 2015-08-13 02:11 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
I'm honestly disappointed you didn't show any of the better scenes. Mr. Bloom's appearance and deal with the Penguin, Jim talking with Bruce, Alfred & Superman, the revelation with what happened to Bruce, etc.

Date: 2015-08-13 02:37 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
The Alfred/Superman scene was great and I really liked that Snyder used Clark in it as it somehow strengthened the concept that Clark and Bruce are best friends in this universe.

I am really interested at the moment how they bring Bruce back as Batman as they are really building it to be a truly tragic moment. Which is awesome.

Date: 2015-08-13 10:23 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I could see it coming one of two ways:

1. Something bad happens to Julie, and the tragedy of it unlocks all those years of memories back in Bruce's head.

2. Bruce, either because of said tragedy or because he is convinced the world needs him as Batman more than he needs his happiness, uses the machine we saw in the Batcave that implants all those memories to gain all the memories back.

What would be interesting in the second case is that since he would only remember up to 27, he would have a bit of a memory gap, and might have to relearn and re-get to know everyone in the Bat-Family.

Date: 2015-08-13 11:39 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I don't know, I think it will be a mixture of the two. For some reason I almost feel that someone will force him to have those memories again because Gotham needs Bruce as Batman.

But to be honest, I don't know. Just with this creative team I feel it will hit hard and I can barely wait for it. While hoping that I get to wait for a while so that the story gets good time to build up.

Date: 2015-08-14 05:00 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
"And might have to relearn and re-get to know everyone in the Bat-Family."

Heh, shee-it. This I would love to see. He'll have a vastly different set of first impressions coming for him.

I hope nothing bad happens to Julie, though. Aside from the obvious fridging issue, I think she'd work better as a living reminder that not everything from his past was all doom and gloom.

Date: 2015-08-14 05:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk

Oh yeah, she'd generate more angst living a good life in Gotham than as a tombstone to brood at.

Date: 2015-08-14 05:50 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
More angst? Like in a 'one good rose in a garden of weeds' kind of angst?

Date: 2015-08-13 03:49 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
I was going to question whether Jim was actually killing those dudes (Batman has used tranq darts in the past)... but then I saw the shark had eaten some of them, so yeah, they're dead, I guess.

Date: 2015-08-13 04:34 pm (UTC)
damar148: (Default)
From: [personal profile] damar148
I could accept Jim being Batman in a big powersuit as compensating for his lack of skills and advanced age. Him going out in tights and shoot people is drawing the line.

Date: 2015-08-13 10:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
They've established he's not that old. He's supposed to be in his mid-forties or so--basically the same age as, say, RDJ and Affleck for their movies.

Date: 2015-08-13 04:44 pm (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I tuned out of the Snyder/Capullo Batman quite a while ago, but the current arc has me very tempted to come back. The over the top mech anime influence is far more interesting to me than what the title was before now.

I'm probably gonna trade wait on this though, partially because I don't trust the team to not turn Mr. Bloom into just another of Snyder's boring antagonists.
Edited Date: 2015-08-13 04:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-08-13 05:28 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
wait... Julia still works for batgordon?

Date: 2015-08-13 10:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Under a different name, but yes.

Date: 2015-08-13 06:24 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Nope just not digging this New 52 Jim Gordon, might as well be a new character instead of de aging Gordon so heavily plus I always found Gordon a leader of a group rather than a solo adventurer.

Date: 2015-08-14 01:16 pm (UTC)
junipepper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
Yeah, I agree. It's essentially a new character under an old name, which is an insult to, well, pretty much everyone.

Date: 2015-08-14 05:58 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
I wouldn't mind it so much had the concept been more akin to several officers plus Gordon would rotate between being Batman. Each member with their own unique skills and fighting styles in keeping the enemy confused. Sadly Snyder pulled a Slott on Gordon.

Date: 2015-08-14 10:45 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
I also miss the earlier runs, but I don't think Gordon'd agree to the 'several officers' proposal.

Not only is he heavily exposed to what it means to be Batman (having worked with the guy for years), but he's also a father to his men. If I remember right, he did this so that none of the younger cops under him (like that cop on the rooftop sneaking off to check his baby) would have to: if he screwed up, it'd be contained to just him.

But I think Bruce would be receptive. Sure, the GCPD did make that messed-up 'replacement Batman' program, but Bruce did fund Batman, Inc.

Date: 2015-08-22 06:34 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Oh yeah that whole GCPD making crazy cops with Doctor Hurt I'm sensing a lot of plots Snyder is borrowing from Morrison. But Gordon should be used to sending cops to the front lines he knows the consequence and accepts it like that time in Arkham City when he sent various cops to the prison to spy on Hugo Strange knowing full well the danger of being exposed and tortured.

Date: 2015-08-13 06:31 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: Sad Nightwing (Sad Nightwing)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yeah, this whole conceit just isn't being handled well IMHO

There might have been an interesting story to tell, but in his mid 40's at least Jim Gordon running around in skintight spandex and even worse "honouring" the memory of the deceased (or rather "deceased again considering RIP is still in continuity) Batman by shooting them dead is just a horrible, horrible idea.

Date: 2015-08-14 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] lego_joker
B-B-But he's going back to Batman's Golden Age roots!/fanboy

Date: 2015-08-14 04:28 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I just feel the need to point out that one can enjoy this story and not be bothered by the facts listed by icon_uk without being a fanboy. Just like icon_uk isn't a fanboy of a previous by pointing them out.

Date: 2015-08-14 04:50 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Naw, I don't think he's calling ike a fanboy - the /fanboy seems like a hashtag-type thing, denoting that the sentence represents how lego_joker thinks the typical fanboy's reply would be.

Date: 2015-08-14 07:21 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Sonny Strait Nightcrawler)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"Ike"? ;D

Date: 2015-08-14 07:34 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
*raises hands jokingly* Hey, I can't write 'Dwight D. Eisenhower' all the time. Sometimes I shortcut terms.

Date: 2015-08-14 02:42 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I didn't think lego_joker was calling icon_uk a fanboy? While obviously agreeing with icon_uk via a sarcastic comment, which as you point out, seems to indicate that fanboys would react like this as apparently only fanboys would feel differently.

My issue was that why reduce to the discussion to that level. This is a thread with both positive and negative comments, so label an argument that hasn't even been made nor is relevant in any manner in to being a fanboy argument?

And I will be honest, two things that contributed to my comment was that I tired while reading it and that I am becoming so annoyed by the term fanboy being thrown around the moment someone disagrees. Not here, but in general.

Date: 2015-08-14 11:09 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Hey, if that's your stance on it, I don't mind. But understand that lego_joker's comment wasn't a shrewd, calculated plan of attack to destabilize the discussion and mock the term 'fanboy': it was just a comment.

Don't let the small things get to you, man: you'll end up over-searching post after post here, waiting for that guy who disagreed with you to comment again so you can pick a new fight, while still secretly thinking of the old one.

Date: 2015-08-14 07:25 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
The / bit usually means "end"

It's a bit of html code [formatting command]text[/formatting command]

So lego_joker isn't saying that's what they thing, just that that's what he's saying is the sort of fanboy rant one might here where any violence that Batman perpetrates is "going back to his roots", referring to the less than a years worth of Batman stories, pre-Robin, where he uses a gun and lethal force.

Date: 2015-08-14 02:44 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I know that it was coding language and I know that the initial of Batman ran around with a gun.

The problem with me in that comment was the literally no one was that argument here. You were making a statement why you didn't like the story and their response comment seemed to indicate that only fanboys could argue with it. That was my issue with the comment, which I still have, but might not have responded with if I hadn't been tired while reading it.

Date: 2015-08-14 06:20 am (UTC)
beoweasel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beoweasel
I wouldn't mind it so much if Gordon was using a regular pistol, because, after all, he's a flipping cop, so it makes sense that he'd use a firearm.

...but why does the gun have to shoot bat shurikens? It feels like an extra slap to Bruce's face, as Gordon is not only killing his targets, but using tiny bat symbols to do it.

Also, has anyone brought up how hilariously unethical this is? He's essentially a state-sanctioned hit-man, fully-armed and equipped with military-grade hardware, the public isn't allowed to know WHO he is, he operates outside of the Gotham Police Department, (but is meant to 'work with them and local governments'), and he does so by murdering people. Not only does he murder people, but the state fully expects him to kill people, because they've armed him with lethal weapons including missile pod-launchers and a goddamn shuriken pistol.

Date: 2015-08-14 07:28 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Your final paragraph would actually make him a cross between an American SWAT team member, and something like the British SAS, where the soldiers names aren't publicly known, and they are deployed in the nastiest, most dangerous situations imaginable.

Date: 2015-08-14 02:21 am (UTC)
alschroeder3: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alschroeder3
I actually am enjoying this. Gordon as Batman makes an interesting spin, like yet not-like, and seeing a mellow Bruce Wayne just makes my day. Doubtless Joker survived and has much the same amnesia Bruce has, so when he finally returns, he will have completely forgotten both his origins---forever a mystery even to HIM--and Bruce's identity. They are trying hard for a different set of "fabulous toys"--Bat-App, Bat-Blimp, Bat-Truck. We KNOW it's temporary. Yet Snyder has a new set of villains, and a new hero to play Batman---who is nevertheless an old friend who won't let us down. (Unlike, say, Azrael.) Whereas every succeeding Superman book makes me more and more depressed, I smile when I pick up Batman, knowing I'll be in good hands.

Jim looks awful in the mohawk, though.

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