Date: 2015-12-09 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Wait, is the Joker free of his past too, or is he actually Mr. Bloom?

Date: 2015-12-09 10:37 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I loved that scene as for me just for the thematic punch, that big reminder. If Bruce returns as Batman, as Gotham's greatest hero, it will also bring back the Joker, Gotham's greatest menace. And Capullo's artwork and the coloring is magnificent there.

Although I am slightly surprised that they had the visit from J here as I thought Snyder had said that End Game would be his last story with Joker and I would have assumed they would have kept him more in the shadows.

Date: 2015-12-10 01:35 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I've "Going Sane" and I've always thought the concept was better than the execution for me personally, but I can also easily see why others would like it. I also remember the Spider-Man story.

I like this execution more as it keeps Joker mysterious and, after having kept the focus on Bruce and his contentness in life, just pulls off that last minute reminder that if Batman returns, then so does the Joker. There is just something extremely awesome in tying their states so well together, and yeah, I can easily see why this reminds of "Going Sane".

Date: 2015-12-10 02:34 am (UTC)
alicemacher: Lisa Winklemeyer from the webcomic Penny and Aggie, c2004-2011 G. Lagacé, T Campbell (Default)
From: [personal profile] alicemacher
I love that story too.

There was a JLA story with a callback of sorts to that... something about the Martian Manhunter entering the Joker's mind and finding the sane "Joseph Kerr" persona and his girlfriend at the centre.

Date: 2015-12-09 10:55 pm (UTC)
qalchemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] qalchemist
I... kind of like where this is going!

Date: 2015-12-10 12:42 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Hm, considering Snyder had an entire page devoted to the Joker's eyes and how they've got constantly constricted pupils due to hating everyone he sees (yeah, it's a thing apparently)... This version doesn't look particularly benevolent. It's curious that he's still got white skin, as you'd think that that would have been cured by the same thing which cured his paralysis...

Speaking of, I still stand by my theory that it was the Joker that "saved" Batman and is just biding his time while he plots something even worse to do to him.

Hmm, the choice of the Joker wearing a white suit is also interesting. Considering how Year Zero Batman had purple gloves as an homage to the original version of Batman, could the Joker's clothes here he a reference to the other major storyline where he came back after Bruce retired, ie Dark Knight Returns.

Date: 2015-12-10 01:43 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I think the white skin is more about the lighting, as he is directly beneath the lamplight, as you can see his skin being closer to normal in the shadows. And I agree there is something off here, but I don't think it's necessarily malicious. We haven't seen enough yet, but the art feels more quirky to me.

The white suit might be an homage to DKR, but I thought it was more a way to work in a reference to white skin. For me, the shirt and tie were better, as they subtly bring out those traditional Joker colors.

Date: 2015-12-11 03:05 pm (UTC)
dc2houseofmystery: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dc2houseofmystery
An entire page? Which issue?

Date: 2015-12-11 07:47 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Batman 15, during the Death of the Family arc.

Date: 2015-12-10 02:45 am (UTC)
alschroeder3: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alschroeder3

Snyder wrote himself out of the problem with the Joker knowing Bruce's identity by robbing both men of everything they knew. He tantalizes us with the hope of true change while, with the inevitability of all good tragedies, moving them oh-so-slowly to what they were.

Lumberbruce and a sane Joker.

For now.

Date: 2015-12-10 04:16 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I think that final panel is a visual reference to "The Killing Joke", is it not? The "I'm just crazy about it" panel.

Date: 2015-12-10 04:17 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
I'm finding a lot of this surprisingly enjoyable, though the bit where Gordon kisses the helmet of his Bat-Suit looks a lot more erotic under Capullo's pencils than I think Snyder intended.

Date: 2015-12-10 04:34 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, especially given the thematic connections other posters have brought up, but I'm still a little disappointed by this reveal. Over the past couple of years I've grown to be utterly sick of the Joker as a character, in large part due to Snyder's writing of him as an unparalleled ubervillain who's appeared in every storyline since Court of Owl. I was really just hoping to see him quietly sidelined for at least a couple of years.

As it stands my immediate reaction was along the like of "Really? Already with this?"

Date: 2015-12-10 06:03 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Yers...I think pushing Bruce into remembering and becoming the Bat again is editorial interference because of the upcoming movie. This has been the first arc by Snyder that I actually enjoyed (it's fresh and inventive rather than just rehashing Morrison's plot points in a new style), and it's a little sad it didn't get longer than a year to really do it justice. I'd love to see Jim Gordon go through a whole emotional arc as the Batman, dammit!

Date: 2015-12-10 08:23 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I think pushing Bruce into remembering and becoming the Bat again is editorial interference because of the upcoming movie.

I think it's more down to corporate inevitability, there was no way Bruce was ever going to get permanently "cured" of being Batman.

Date: 2015-12-10 08:58 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
True, past experience shows that (how many times did Morrison try it? Three?), but I'm just saddened we'd couldn't have Jim Gordon In A Giant Blue Bunny Suit around for a little while longer.

Date: 2015-12-10 05:56 am (UTC)
kuronotenshi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kuronotenshi
I liked this.

I liked this an awful lot, because I feel like it was built up. Gotham under Jim-Bat has it's problems, but nowhere near the same as Bruce-Bat. Given what I saw of the build-up, Bruce was forced to face the Bat in his past.

At that -moment- when fans could have what they 'want', arguably, of a Bruce-Bat return....Snyder brings in the caveat. "Yes. You can have Bruce-Bat...potentially...but realize what it changes."

We don't -know- about this version of Joker. From the suit, the confidence, the cleanliness, I Would almost assume he's a comedian. Probably stand-up. Probably a successful version of "The Killing Joke" Joker.

Which makes it all more powerful, if you really think about it.

"I've seen you sitting here from time to time." That implies -this- version of Joker was almost stalking. Waiting. Whether he knew or not....or had that sense to interact or not. Sane!Joker has seen Lumberbruce sitting on that exact park bench..considering. And he's noted it.

This is the first time he really spoke...and they both have a connection there. If Lumberbruce had finished his sentence, would he be ready? Or would he not?

If you analyze it further...Bruce is the one with a good life who doesn't want to return to Batman....selfishness, etc, read the comic for the other parts. .. but if -Batman- does Joker.

Maybe -this- Joker doesn't want to do that..but he realizes it. If Lumberbruce says those words.... ... Sane Joker will have to follow his mentality. Maybe he doesn't want to do that. Maybe this is 'Sane' Joker trying to salvage what he's well as what Bruce built. After all. Look at the most important's not voiced by any characters there...

It is the narration...

"In fact, the Gotham card ... ... that card could be your best friend in a long time."

To really -analyze- that line.... Alfred made the decision to let Lumberbruce be Lumberbruce..... it was the decision of a grieving father respecting the wishes of their son. Since then, in the comics, Alfred has respected Lumberbruce wishes and done nothing...but sometimes it isn't our family or 'viewed' friends (See JLA where this was similarly referenced)..but it's our -best- friend that we don't necessarily view as a friend...that knows what works.

I'll close this crazy rambling that will likely get flamed with comments with a simple comparison. Look at Heath Ledger's Joker.

" Oh, you. You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever. "

Date: 2015-12-10 08:14 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Does make you wonder if the characters like Duke and Clark are actually aware of what they're asking. They WANT Bruce to be Batman, in defiance of Alfred and Bruce's wishes, as to them Bruce being Batman is what's required by the Greater Good.

Bruce as Batman has saved the city thousands of times, and that his decision to not be that person any more is seen as a selfish one...

...Even though one of the reasons in Year Zero that Bruce decided to remain Batman is so that people like the Riddler and the Joker would be drawn to him instead of attacking regular people.

Duke yells at Bruce using the justification that Bruce was the man who saved him, and that he should be that man again. Even though to get that man back, he's also going to have to get the man who killed/disappeared Duke's parents back in the first place.

Date: 2015-12-10 08:28 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
I'm disappointed that we're getting a return to Bruce as Batman and the Joker so quickly. While I never expected it to be permanent, I'm okay with them keeping Bruce sidelined for a while just to let the current status quo play out properly...especially so Gordon can succeed or fail on his own merits. Rushing things robs us of a good story.

And if we didn't see the Joker for a few years, all the better. After everything he's been through in the New 52, he could stand for a lengthy vacation.

Ah well.

Date: 2015-12-10 09:00 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Enh, at least this time he has his face on.

...For now.

Date: 2015-12-10 06:16 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
If Snyder has any common sense then this will more be about acknowledging the utterly sad inevitability of Batman and the Joker, really; I can understand him bringing in Joker here to parallel Bruce and his change since Endgame, but I really hope that when this guy snaps and eventually becomes Joker again, he just disappears for a good long while, maybe even leaving it to another writer to have Joker basically enacting his revenge for bringing him back at all.

Date: 2015-12-10 08:28 am (UTC)
crimsonmoonmist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crimsonmoonmist
Alright, Mr. Snyder. You got my attention.
This'll no doubt end in tragedy once the status quoe catches up with them,
but for once, it's a bat-flavored tragedy that hasn't been repeated over and over already.

Date: 2015-12-10 01:59 pm (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Goddamn it, I hope normal Bruce and normal Joker stick around for a while. This is great.

Date: 2015-12-11 03:29 am (UTC)
silverhammerman: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverhammerman
I suppose it's a little late to be saying this, but it's relevant to where this scene fits in the greater context: I actually really don't care for the way that Snyder has portrayed the Batman/Joker dynamic throughout his run. I just don't think it works.

It's a cute enough way of playing with the meta and Joker Immunity, but I don't agree with making it explicit in the text. Not only does making the Joker the only villain who matters completely miss the point of Batman's having a rogues gallery, but it's just way to mythological to fit with the pseudo-realism of Batman as a whole. Also, saying that the existence of the hero is kind of a bad thing is a bit pretentious as far as I'm concerned, especially when the status quo of corporate comics means that the idea can never actually be "resolved."

The whole thing reeks of over explanation.

Date: 2015-12-12 05:06 pm (UTC)
junipepper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
Oh good. It wasn't just me. :-)


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