Date: 2016-08-27 06:45 pm (UTC)
oddityangel: (Are you for real?)
From: [personal profile] oddityangel
I didn't realise Frank killed people who were already incarcerated.

...I really hate this character.

Date: 2016-08-27 06:55 pm (UTC)
monsieur_safior: (Default)
From: [personal profile] monsieur_safior
Me to or better to say I hate with he represent.

i'm fairly sure a good writtne can make his story readable, like when he was Frankencastle.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:56 pm (UTC)
oddityangel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oddityangel
Ehh..he is often well written, for what he is, I suppose it would be more fair to say I hate this TYPE of character. I just can't understand the appeal, though I suppose that's a personal problem.

He's fine if he's only stomping through his corner of MAX, it seems like he doesn't show up as often in regular continuity (which is just as well).
Edited Date: 2016-08-27 07:57 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-08-27 08:02 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
I like main universe Punisher when they treat him as an over the top 80s action hero with a anti hero edge. That's pretty much ir.

Date: 2016-08-28 05:07 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except Punisher has always been a vigilante. Also, action heroes are usually anti-heroes, so what do you mean "with an anti-hero edge "?

Date: 2016-08-28 10:48 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
With 80's action heroes there was typically a solid justification as to why they were mowing people down; Commando has Ahnuld mowing down people in some South American country because they're bad guys and kidnapped his daughter, Predator has a bunch of top merc/army guys set up to mow down bad guys, etc. They're always going after people we understand to be bad or evil, even if it's on the loose, American-leaning politics of the time, so they were distinctly good guys.

Date: 2016-08-29 01:29 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
But they weren't saints, they were still anti-heroes and many of them were as problematic as Castle.

Date: 2016-08-29 11:14 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Again, by the standards of the times, they were. That was why they were called action heroes. They presented the type of Big, Bold, Americana that Reagan was pushing while he was swindling everyone. They weren't anti-heroes because they weren't acknowledged as problematic in story. They were basically portrayed as being incredibly cool because they took the direct solution to say, having their daughter kidnapped or whatever. None of them were ever acknowledged to be problematic like Frank; especially the likes of say, Cobra, who was so gung-ho and ridiculous it bordered on parody, but is never stated to be genuinely problematic, and indeed, is actually presented as being in the right when he *batters* a more procedural detective at the film's end.

Date: 2016-08-29 06:37 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
It's worth noting that many of the 80s action heroes had baked-in excuses for their actions. In Commando, Arnold can't go to the authorities due to circumstances that force his hand (captive daughter, very short time window, etc.). In films like Predator, he's government sanctioned (though when he realizes they're doing black-ops dirty work, he rebels).

Rambo is complicated. First Blood is the very antithesis of a 80s action hero movie; it's smart, somber and shows him as self-destructive....it's more of a thriller. The sequels are big and dumb and miss the point of the first movie. Cobra was a failure out of the gate...no one liked it then, either. Most of Chuck Norris output either makes him a cop, government agent or guy pushed to the edge who has no other option. John McClane is a cop and tries to follow protocol until he can't if he wants to live. In most cases, the 80s action hero only goes off-program when he has no choice or has a specific mandate to do so (or is forced to do so by corrupt forces, like the sheriff in First Blood). Cobra was a failure when it was released...nobody liked it then, either.

And while the Punisher originally started as a villain, when he got his own series he was portrayed as first an anti-hero and then a hero who used rubber bullets in Baron's run ("Rubber Bullets. Honest."), because if he really killed as much then as he does now, it would never stand. How it stands now is kind of hard to believe, so I try not to think of it.

Date: 2016-08-28 10:46 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I always say that the only time 616 Frank has ever been compelling to me is Rucka's run, which was less 'look at how cool he is with this debauched bullshit' like Ennis or stuff like this, and more 'no, Frank's pretty much basically a criminal but we left him alone because he never killed the wrong people' and 'Frank is not a unique individual or a special snowflake and you could easily make *more* Punishers; this is a terrible thing'. It's literally the only time a character like Frank has ever worked in 616, because Spidey, Daredevil and others called him out on what he was doing and decided enough was enough.

Date: 2016-08-29 01:26 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
That's kinda why they made the Max series though. To put him in a world without heroes.

Date: 2016-08-29 11:17 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
But then it doesn't really do anything interesting with him. That's why Rucka's 616 run grabbed me. It forced Frank back among the heroes and made it clear how he ticked among them, it gave Frank more characterisation than I'd seen before. This doesn't really do anything new with the character that Ennis hadn't done, only marginally more rooted in morality and with moderately less outrageousness.

Date: 2016-08-29 04:17 am (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
100% in agreement here.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:05 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
its in his nature same way Batman tries to uphold his no killing rule.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:06 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
You kidding? This isn't the first or last time he has done this. Shit, he does that every time he's incarcerated to the point they have to put him in solitary for the other prisoners protection.

I don't understand why you think Punisher would care if they are in prison or not.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:49 pm (UTC)
oddityangel: (Are you for real?)
From: [personal profile] oddityangel
I'm not well versed in The Punisher's history (on account of hating the character), but I figured he killed people when he was in prison with him as a mixture of crime of opportunity and self defence. It's not quite the same as actively seeking out inmates, imho.

And I guess I sort of subconsciously gave the Punisher the benefit of the doubt that if a criminal were already being appropriately punished by the system (rather than eluding it, exploiting it, whatever) they wouldn't really register as something he needed to deal with while there are other, active threats out there that are not going to spend the rest of their natural lives in prison. I mean, why this woman and not the dozens standing next to her? If they are in the same facility as her there's a good chance their crimes were similarly heinous.

But I guess, yeah, I forget sometimes that Frank's basically just a revenge porn character.
Edited Date: 2016-08-27 07:51 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-08-27 07:54 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Castle doesn't particularly like people that kill kids basically.

Date: 2016-08-27 08:04 pm (UTC)
oddityangel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oddityangel
Fair enough, I suppose (though I still find it hard to believe she's the only child killer even on that yard, though I suppose he could exactly set up a duck blind and take shots all afternoon, the guards might eventually object).

Date: 2016-08-28 05:02 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
True, but it seems he was there for her specifically. It was probably on the news or something.

Date: 2016-08-29 04:23 am (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
It's extremely likely that she'd be in solitary or in the protective wing, which exist precisely to keep prisoners convicted of crimes like that from being killed. It's extremely unlikely that any maximum (or most medium or minimum) security prison would have trees tall enough and close enough to the yard for someone with a hand-held sniper rifle to get a one-shot kill. But Jason Aaron had some kind of a point to make.

Date: 2016-08-27 08:00 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
I don't think it was always like this. Before Punisher was still a vigilante, but he was just as much an 80s action hero. As the darkness arms race in comics heated up he started taking on more psychotic characteristics.

Date: 2016-08-28 04:56 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Other way around actually, Punisher these days is not as bad as his 80's counterpart.

Date: 2016-08-28 08:44 am (UTC)
dcbanacek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dcbanacek
The "shoot at jaywalker's and litterer's" counterpart you mean?

Date: 2016-08-27 07:18 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
While I thought that the Homeless arc was a mess as I just didn't understand the need to add some of the plot points, like the Vanessa/Elektra thing really felt shoehorned in, I do really admire Aaron's approach to Punisher as he really avoided glorifying the Punisher. Frank never really felt like a hero or a force for good in this hero.

Funny thing is

Date: 2016-08-27 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chortles81
I've seen one review complain that the ending thereof did glorify him to the point of feeling tacked on compared to the rest of the book, especially what came right before it (earlier in the ending).

Re: Funny thing is

Date: 2016-08-27 09:49 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
But the ending felt more terrifying to me than inspiring.

Re: Funny thing is

Date: 2016-08-28 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chortles81
I think the interpretation as glorious was because of Fury deciding 'it wasn't for nothing after all' after seeing that instead of his original admission about Frank.

Date: 2016-08-27 11:45 pm (UTC)
panelsarewindows: (Default)
From: [personal profile] panelsarewindows
Honestly this run might be one of my favourite portrayals of the Punisher (outside of maybe Ruckas brief run) because of the lengths it goes to show Frank Castle is not a hero or doing this out of righteousness, but because he has nothing else to live for. The final few issues with Bullseye in particular are pretty amazing at this (and what I mainly remember), so I hope this series keeps posting until it gets to that climax

Date: 2016-08-27 11:51 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
But this happens after the climax with Bullseye, which was pretty great though.

Date: 2016-08-28 12:16 am (UTC)
panelsarewindows: (Default)
From: [personal profile] panelsarewindows
I realise I've gotten the order of this series completely mixed up, as it's been a while since I've read it. Not sure why, but I had it my head that after Frank killed Electra, Kingpin hired Bullseye to replace her, and then that arc led to the finale. I think i felt the Bullseye stuff was such a emotional climax for the series it made more sense to conclude it there than go on fit another arc. Anyway, thanks for reminding me!

Date: 2016-08-28 12:44 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
No issues, the Bullseye thing was great after all and the rest of the series never really match that thematic confrontation. It didn't help that I still quite can't grasp what Aaron was going for with Elektra.

Date: 2016-08-28 01:02 am (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
Considering the guff about it made by the intro it seems to me that her entire involvement is to try to shock the audience by showing that Punisher is willing to blow away a woman.

Who is made a lesbian with the other doomed female antagonist. Because evoking generic femme fatales is one thing, but turning them into a doomed lesbian couple is even... better?

Like, I know it's incredibly uncharitable but the lesbian thing comes off kinda like how older pulp writers would make a character lesbian to highlight their sexual depravity and how they corrupt other women.
Edited Date: 2016-08-28 01:03 am (UTC)

Date: 2016-08-28 05:10 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except it's not depravity, Elektra actually loved Vanessa, unlike the Max version of Kingpin. Hard to say Vanessa felt the same though.

Also, mainstream Punisher never had a problem with killing female criminals either.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:23 pm (UTC)
mizerous: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mizerous
Wow that was an anti-climatic death for Elektra.

Date: 2016-08-27 07:52 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
She is not dead. She's actually killed later.

Date: 2016-08-27 11:52 pm (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
In a way that manages to be even more anti-climatic.

Date: 2016-08-27 08:01 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
That's kind of why I dislike the idea of porting other Marvel characters to Punisher Max. They get nerfed so Punisher can come out on top. So Electra is just some cookie cutter femme fatale and Kingpin is stripped of his Ubermensch characteristics.

Date: 2016-08-28 04:59 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
She's not nerfed, she's just treated realistically. Big difference. After all, super heroes don't exist in the Punisher Max universe, it's kinda the point.

Elektra was actually winning against Frank anyway. He wins by fighting dirty.

Date: 2016-08-27 11:50 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
So Frank Castle can curve a bullet? Seriously, look at how he is aiming at Elektra and where she is shot. The bullet looks like it should go flying by her! This really isn't very good art.

Date: 2016-08-28 05:00 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
She survives, so clearly it wasn't a killing shot anyway.

Date: 2016-08-28 07:27 am (UTC)
lyricalswagger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyricalswagger
Just can't stand this character.

Seems to be an okay story, but still.

Date: 2016-08-28 10:51 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I get what you mean. I can't stand most takes on Frank. There's literally four Punisher trades on my shelf; they're all Rucka's run.

Date: 2016-08-29 03:47 am (UTC)
sarahnewlin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sarahnewlin
I just read 'Elektra Lives Again' and ooh-la-la Matt in his briefs.....oh my! A pleasant surprise.

Date: 2016-08-29 06:54 am (UTC)
lieut_kettch: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lieut_kettch
And to think Frank and Elektra were bumping uglies in 616.

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