Date: 2017-01-25 02:43 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (lyra)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
So who's ready for another event people?! I know you all are after Civil War 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue and during both Inhumans Vs. X-Men and Monsters Unleashed! More events, more events MORE EVVEEEENNNNNTTTTSSSS!!!!!


Date: 2017-01-25 02:52 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Month after month of constant, dizzying, terrifying events, each more climactic than the last, and all of it more important than the last! And all of it mattering impressively to someone presumably!

They will never be over, the events will continue on forever, it will never be decided that anyone has had enough events!
So read them! Read the events! Read them! Read them! They're gonna sell!


Date: 2017-01-26 08:49 pm (UTC)
mizerous: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mizerous
Civil War III End of the Xehan-Avengers Saga

Date: 2017-01-29 08:27 pm (UTC)
zylly: (Atomic Robo Twitch)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Monsters Unleashed, at least, looks to be a good old fashioned, heroes unite against a greater threat kind of crossover. Wasn't sure those were even legal anymore.

Date: 2017-01-25 02:50 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
How the hell didn't anyone else notice that last bit when viewing the vision, where they really all that focused on Miles and Hydra Steve.?

I also hate that some of the things Hydra Steve is saying isn't all that wrong. Not at first, though he does loses it as he goes on.

Date: 2017-01-25 04:26 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
I LOVE that everything he is saying isn't wrong.

People seem to love strawmans. Seem to think its clever to present arguments in a way that any reasonable person of goodwill would immediately reject. Its not clever, its not brave, its not useful. You can't fight a point of view you don't allow yourself to understand. Maybe ignorance of a certain mindset is noble when only a very small minority has that mindset, but when millions of people feel a certain way not only is ignorance not noble, its suicide.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:02 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Well, I like Phil Noto's artwork. (It is Phil Noto, right?)

(Also hydra!Cap here is drawing on the same problem that always comes up with the X-Men and fictional discrimination: it's not unreasonable to be afraid of mind-control powers or giant claws or optic death laser blasts. That's a very reasonable thing for a non-mutant person to be afraid of. The problem comes when you start conflating powers with people: Cyclops (no matter what you think of his current actions) is a fundamentally decent person. Jean Grey, Ororo Munroe, Hank McCoy--they're all good people. But when you treat all mutants as dangerous monsters, shun and fear them, put them in camps and force them to hide... well, I'm guessing villainy starts to look a lot more appealing.

So hydra!Cap isn't off the mark with the "afraid" part, but then follows it up with the "hysterical bigot" part and, well... the MU citizens are being bigoted, in a fictional sense. I wish he'd said this to--I dunno, Logan or Storm or whoever's the designated X-Men liaison these days.)

Also also, obligatory scans!daily comment on the closeness of Cap and Tony's faces in the panel just before Hydra takes over the White House.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:08 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except that doesn't change how scary their powers are. Hell, you've mentioned Jean Grey and she has hurt a lot of innocent people over the years as Phoenix. People are still afraid of her. Maybe she's not the best example.

And why would Hydra Steve be talking to Ororo or Logan? He went for Tony because he didn't want a conversation. Why else would he talk gloat to a guy in a coma?

Date: 2017-01-25 03:26 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Are people still scared of Jean? Honest question, I thought she'd passed into the whole 'of blessed memory' thing by now, with the blame being passed on to the Phoenix Force.

And yeah, powers are definitely super-scary. I'm all for proper training and monitoring and anti-mutant power measures. But people, the mutants themselves, are just people, with their flaws and strengths and quirks, and if they're all just treated like monsters then there's going to be pushback, and rightfully so--and some people are inevitably going to go, hell with it, might as well be a monster, maybe there'll be more opportunities in it. It's like in the Dragon Age 'verse, where all mages are automatically tossed into a Circle tower--Hogwarts, except you can't leave and contact with anyone outside is limited and Templar soldiers are watching your every single move and you're constantly getting "magic bad! Demons! Explosions! Nnargh!" drummed into your head. And then people are baffled when mages start going stir-crazy and turning to blood magic, while apostates (a mage Hawke, Bethany, a Dalish mage Inquisitor) are normal, relatively well-adjusted people.

I meant talk to Ororo or Logan in the sense that they'd have a good comeback for the line. I know he meant to gloat and not to have an actual debate. It's a good villainous gloat, it just... misses the mark.

Date: 2017-01-25 04:16 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
The mage thing Dragon Age doesn't worked for me as an allegory though.

And yes they are nice people, but it doesn't change that a lot of them have still hurt people or lost control of their powers. So it's not entirely unreasonable for regular people to be scared.

Hell, i'm a big Hulk fan and hate how the civilians flip flop on him. But objectively i also understand why they would fear the Hulk, regardless of the good Bruce and the Hulk have done.

Date: 2017-01-25 05:30 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Sure. But hydra!Cap here is talking being afraid of mutants on a societal, systemic level, and that runs into prejudice--when you start assuming all mutants are evil uncontrollable monsters right off the bat. It's like--to take it out of the fictional realm--assuming all Muslim people are terrorists because of ISIS and Al-Qaeda: it's blatantly untrue, and bigoted to boot.

(The mage thing in Dragon Age is complicated, and not helped by the writers flip-flopping around a lot. Fertile fodder for fanfic, though.)

Date: 2017-01-27 07:18 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Not even remotely the same.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:25 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
This isn't Phil Noto's art. It's Rod Reis, who drew C.O.W.L. a while back. Written by Kyle Higgins, it was a good Image series. Only two volumes long so give it a shot if you wanna see more of this art.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:27 pm (UTC)
mesmiranda: (love!)
From: [personal profile] mesmiranda
Damn. But hey, new artist! I'm definitely going to check that out, thanks. ;)

Date: 2017-01-25 03:29 pm (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
No problem! I think someone did posts here on the series as well, so take a look around to get a feel for the art and writing.

Date: 2017-01-26 07:23 am (UTC)
kore: (Jessica Jones)
From: [personal profile] kore
Rod Reis is the primary....damn, is the washed-out Hydra stuff Noto? Usually his colours are better.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:04 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Now, see, Evil Steve, your rant would probably make sense were it not based on one single, and pretty darn critical, point:
The people of the Marvel Universe.
The small-minded idiots who turn on a dime, who were okay with the Registration Act, who cheered Norman Really-Obviously-Evil Can't-Believe-You-Haven't-Noticed Osborn, who are okay with throwing bricks at mutants just for being mutants.

So all I'm hearing with that speech is:
"What did you expect? "Thank you"? "Marry my daughter"? You gotta remember, Tony, that these are ordinary folk. People of the cities. The common clay of America. Y'know...


Date: 2017-01-25 07:04 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Or, to borrow a line from another popular action comedy:

"Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it."
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Date: 2017-01-26 02:26 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
Or as Sting once put it: "Me go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one."

Date: 2017-01-25 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] gnarll
Hydra Steve is not bad. I wish they could extend the manipulation back a bit.

Suddenly AvX looks more reasonable. Cyclops builds a massively powerful team not under Steves control, and he decides that can't stand.

Date: 2017-01-25 07:07 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Given Hydra!Steve is a result of his memories getting rewritten, maybe that's what he thinks happened in AvX.

As I've said many times, if that had started with Scott telling Steve "It has to be Hope's decision" I would have respected him a little.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:51 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Jack)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Just a wild guess but 'Secret Empire' is probably going to be a Trump metaphor, isn't it.

Date: 2017-01-25 03:53 pm (UTC)
dcbanacek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dcbanacek
Worked for Nixon.

Date: 2017-01-25 04:03 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
The most remembered Secret Empire story is rooted in Nixon and Watergate, so a tone like that wouldn't be un-apt.

" I was writing a man who believed in America's highest ideals at a time when America's President was a crook. I could not ignore that. And so, in the Marvel Universe, which so closely resembled our own, Cap followed a criminal conspiracy into the White House.. " - Steve Englehart

(On the other hand, the setup is looking a bit too explicitly violent for the possibility of a Trump thing.)

Date: 2017-01-25 06:43 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Some of the follow up to that (Cap as Nomad) was a little confusing. Like Steve couldn't comprehend a bad guy pretending to be a good guy.

Date: 2017-01-25 04:17 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Wasn't this planned before the election though?

Date: 2017-01-25 04:21 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
This issue or the event in general?

Date: 2017-01-25 04:37 pm (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Both i guess.

I mean The Oath was supposed to come out earlier and Secret Empire seems to be the end game of the Hydra Cap storyline, so i'd have to imagine it was part of the pitch.
Edited Date: 2017-01-25 04:37 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-01-26 02:48 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Maybe the basic concept but his whole speech about people's views (tired of being called bigots, etc) sounds a lot like what people were saying about why voters turned out for Trump.

Date: 2017-01-25 07:09 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
CIVIL WAR was somehow a George W Bush metaphor with the rich heroes fighting the poor heroes, so yes.

Date: 2017-01-26 06:06 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
Even if it is it's a little unfair to think of it that way given that Steve's shift in personality began before Trump even announced he was running.

Date: 2017-01-26 02:46 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
IDK what you're referring to as Trump announced he was running in 2015 and Hydra!Cap debuted in 2016.

Date: 2017-01-26 03:34 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
Yeah I'm an idiot I meant when he got the republican candidacy. Oops. I still think it's a fair point as it's before he got elected.

Wars just happen, all right?

Date: 2017-01-25 06:58 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
I see the similarity to CIVIL WAR: THE CONFESSION. Although the problem there was "Futurist!Tony knew a superhero war would happen, and it 'just would' because war 'just happens' because that's what people do." All that "People have wars because that's what people do" crap bugs me.

The "petty grudges and infighting" part here... Well, most Marvel villains are villains *because* of petty grudges. Or some warped "greater good" justification. "Things will be much better when I'm running the show."

Date: 2017-01-26 03:26 am (UTC)
viridian5: (Maze by James Jean)
From: [personal profile] viridian5
In that last image the soldiers looks like hundreds of cardboard cutouts to me, making the scene look like some weird piece of performance art to me.

Date: 2017-01-26 06:41 am (UTC)
lbd_nytetrayn: Star Force Dragonzord Power! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lbd_nytetrayn
I, for one, like this twist. That what Ulysses saw wasn't of a near event, but one further out, and perhaps a logical conclusion to Hydra Cap.

Date: 2017-01-26 05:45 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
I'm surprised no one is mentioning the really bizarre thing about this issue:

Hydra!Steve acknowledges that he's changed, that he's not who he used to be, but he has all of Old!Steve's memories. That's a suddenly different twist. He's cognizant of the change.

Date: 2017-01-27 02:35 am (UTC)
chrys: (Default)
From: [personal profile] chrys
Maybe? He revealed he was different for a while, but it doesn't necessarily mean he knows he's been changed recently. I was left wondering if, in his rewritten history, he believes there was a time when he was the other!Steve, between the Hydra flashbacks and the Hydra present, for some reason. Maybe an effect of the serum?

It's an interesting twist, because I was wondering how they would rewrite so many things in his memories to align with being Hydra. It's certainly a big and unexpected revelation.

Date: 2017-01-27 08:45 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Iron Man mark 43 (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Perhaps he believes (and/or was, what with the history changing) that he was a memory-altered sleeper agent, and realSteve was his false memories.


scans_daily: (Default)
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