Date: 2017-02-16 04:07 am (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
And when the people "see the truth", then respond that you got what you deserved (or worse yet, a shrug)?

Oh, the perils of trying to be "Woker Than Thou..."

Date: 2017-02-17 05:32 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Not everyone, problem is that people he's trying to reach already know this and would rather he get a good lawyer.

Date: 2017-02-16 04:38 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
Uuuurgh.
Can we get Bob Ingersoll in here to resurrect "The Law is an Ass" just to tear this storyline apart?

Date: 2017-02-16 06:10 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Marvel's new policy of telling super hero stories rather than political/social ones can't kick in soon enough. I wonder how Waid, Slott, Bendis and Spencer are going to handle the shift in focus. Will they play ball or have meltdowns on Twitter and accuse the boss of being a Nazi in the pocket of Trump?

Date: 2017-02-16 08:05 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
I don't think anyone but Spencer belongs in that group. Slott and Bendis have their own flaws (like how in all Bendis' books this month NOTHING happened) but Spencer's the only one being way heavy-handed with Messages.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:12 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
I think Spencer is certainly the most obvious of the lot, and maybe I'm letting my knowledge of the Twitter wars Waid and others get into cloud my views.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:43 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Yeah they might be strongly espousing their views on social media, but I've not often noticed a particularly political bent to their work. Scarlet by Bendis is an exception.

Date: 2017-02-16 03:39 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I haven't been following Hydra!Cap but his speech to Iron Man in the Civil War II epilogue was pretty blatant in terms of politics.

Date: 2017-02-16 03:24 pm (UTC)
flint_marko: (Cyclops was right)
From: [personal profile] flint_marko

Date: 2017-02-16 03:37 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Doc Ock)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I have no idea what you're even talking about for Slott and Bendis unless it just bothers you that they're outspoken liberals on social media.

Slott's Spider-Man work at least has NEVER been driven by modern politics and strawmen of the opposing views. The closest we got was when Ghost was trying to blow up Parker industries he went "If corporations are people too, does this make me a murderer?" or something along those lines.

With Bendis even at his most political (Civil War II) has never been as 'in your face' as Spencer has. I stuck with Miles Morales's title for over two years and Bendis never brought politics into it even when he could have easily used him as a soapbox on racial politics. That Spider-Man was black was never an issue in-universe. In the new title we had the youtube girl squeeing over it and Miles' reaction was "Why does she even care?" That's as heavy as it got.

Date: 2017-02-16 05:04 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Well, as I said in the other response I conceded that my opinions may have been influenced by the political arguments these writers have gotten into on Twitter. But I would say that yeah, Bendis can be pretty not-so-subtle. In Civil War II #6 there is the scene where Danvers wants to arrest Miles Morales and he pulls up his mask, saying "I can't breathe". That's pretty in your face. And why make young Bobby Drake gay? What's the point? How does it make any sense for the younger Drake to be gay and the older to still be hetero? Unless we're now going to retcon things and make it so Bobby was always gay and his relationship with Kitty Pryde (And every other time he dated or was attracted to a woman) was some massive case of denial? Or are we going to have to wait five years for Bendis to explain it (Like somebody else pointed out here, this past month NOTHING happened in Bendis' comics, which suggests the man is just spinning his wheels and cashing a fat paycheck.) Was anybody asking for Tony Stark to be replaced by a teenage black girl who just happens to be a mega super genius who is apparently even smarter than Stark? Sales of Iron Man suggests that no, nobody really was.

Date: 2017-02-16 05:25 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
I'm not even sure what making a character gay (and yes gay people have been known to be in relationships with the opposite sex) or introducing a black teenage girl has to do with pushing politics. He has two black daughters, maybe he just wanted to make a character that appealed to them.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:10 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
So you're buying the idea that for all these years Bobby has been in self denial regarding his sexual orientation, regardless of things like his rivalry with Havok over Polaris' affections? You are seriously believing that retcon to be viable? Or was the way Bends wrote his fling with Kitty Pryde handled so badly you can more easily believe Bobby just has to be gay to have botched that relationship? This is why I hate retcons in general and how Bendis seems to get a free pass.

And yes, gender and racial issues are both political. Also, notice how Riri's origin involves gun violence in Chicago, a political hot topic. Bendis could have easily made her background different...like having a white Father who writes for a living. But no, he's making a political statement with her.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:12 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Do you think Bendis was making a political statement when he adopted two black girls?

But no I don't think minority characters are inherently politicized even if racial issues are brought up. If Riri starts getting into arguments with straw NRA members or rednecks who complain about Obama taking away their guns, that would be one thing.
Edited Date: 2017-02-16 06:23 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-02-16 06:25 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
"Do you think Bendis was making a political statement when he adopted two black girls?"

I don't know, to be honest. Why did you bring up that up? It feels like you were trying to say something.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:34 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Your assumption was that Bendis's primary motivation for Riri was a political agenda even after being told that he had two black daughters. And now you admit that you're unsure of whether or not Bendis is using them as political props for a liberal agenda, is that correct?

Date: 2017-02-16 06:46 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Having never met Bendis or his daughters (and today is the first I've heard of his even having daughters.) I don't know why he adopted the girls. Why do you assume I think it's possible he adopted the girls to support a liberal agenda? I was talking about his writing, not about his personal life.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:49 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
" Why do you assume I think it's possible he adopted the girls to support a liberal agenda?"

Because your answer to "do you think he did" was "I don't know, to be honest".

Date: 2017-02-16 06:59 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Date: 2017-02-16 09:34 pm (UTC)
bj_l: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bj_l
I'm curious, how many of Iceman relationships have you fully read? Not read summaries, read issues of yourself?

Date: 2017-02-16 11:27 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Other than the Kitty Pryde relationship here and the reprints of the Havok/Bobby rivalry, I haven't read the relationships in between.

Now I'm curious; what does it matter which relationships I've fully read?

Date: 2017-02-18 10:19 am (UTC)
bj_l: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bj_l
It's more that that's the point. His relationships are ultimately light and meaningless. They're fluff and no more convincing, to me, than the times I was 16 - 19, closeted and vying with rivals for girls I realised later I didn't even want as more than friends or trying to convince strangers I was straight

Hell, his rivalry with Havok barely even lasted and was pretty typical for a 16/17/18 year old full of hormones trying to prove something. Even his relationship with Opal was a lot less serious that Trish and Hank. It lasted a while but it never had a spark his contemporaries who were honest about their sexuality had.

With Kitty it was mostly talk and light making out. Promises and little more. I can see why people have a massive problem with the way Bends handled the situation (I don't, personally. Past!Jean has always been morally ambiguous with her powers. She was not portrayed in the right. Bobby called her out on this. Repeatedly. But he was ultimately happy he could talk.), but I don't have a problem with Bobby being gay. I found it very close to my own personal story. Due to cowardice and fear I told people I was straight. Or occasionally 'bi, but I don't look at the gender' but only commented on girls in company, and would have continued to do this until I fell completely in love with my partner (hell he IS my husband, I just live in Australia) and realised I was being completely unfair to myself, anyone that either of us knew were LGBT and came out completely as gay. And it. Felt. Fucking. Great.

Date: 2017-02-17 04:44 am (UTC)
raspberryrain: (roll eyes)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
I don't see how having a black character is automatically political. Going with white characters to avoid controversy would be more political.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:47 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Gun violence is the reality for a lot of people, it's not simply "political".

And a lot of gay men and women go have dated the opposite sex before coming out of the closet. So no, it's not unrealistic at all.

"massive case of denial"?

Date: 2017-02-17 02:33 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chortles81
According to Uncanny X-Men #600, yep!

Re: "massive case of denial"?

Date: 2017-02-17 02:35 am (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Ah, thanks for letting me know.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:50 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
The older Iceman isn't heterosexual, he's gay too.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:49 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
In the case of Ghost, that has always been his main characteristic. So it's not Slott's fault.

Date: 2017-02-18 01:27 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
Yeah but the line was a jab at Romney.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:35 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except comics have always been political, especially Captain America comics.

Although i fail to see how saying that the justice system is biased against non white folk is political, when it's a matter of fact.

Date: 2017-02-17 02:05 pm (UTC)
freezer: (Objection!)
From: [personal profile] freezer
You'd be surprised (and probably depressed) at how many people (not all of them white) will argue you on that issue.

Date: 2017-02-16 12:59 pm (UTC)
thosefew: bored death (Default)
From: [personal profile] thosefew
How long has it been since an issue of Sam Wilson: Captain America was about Sam? This one appears to be about Rage, as was the previous, the one before that was Rage and new Falcon, before that about Misty Knight, before that about wrestling...

Date: 2017-02-16 05:07 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
Perhaps the problem is Sam Wilson simply isn't that interesting a character. Al Ewing even joked about that in his Avengers run when Sam showed up and everybody was asking where Captain America was.

Sam has always been and always will be a sidekick, he simply isn't a very compelling character. It's like putting the WWE championship belt around the waist of a mediocre wrestler.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Or maybe, and this is just a wild stab in the dark, the bit with Sam in Mighty Avengers was a joke on how Sam seems to be constantly linked to Captain America, like the issue says, not a jab at how interesting he might be.

Date: 2017-02-16 06:33 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
That's entirely possible. But when you link what was written then and how Sam has become a supporting character in his own comic now it seems no writer can make him all that interesting. And considering how in December his Captain America comic was 113th in sales I'd say not many people are interested in him.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-12.html

Date: 2017-02-17 05:39 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
No, it's exactly what it was. It wasn't a knock on the character, Al Ewing actually really likes Falcon, which is why he wrote him as a badass. Did you even read Mighty Avengers?

He made Sam's psychic link with birds look badass.

Don't put words in Ewing's mouth, especially when they're obvious falsehoods.

Date: 2017-02-16 08:58 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
That's pretty reductionist. Sidekicks have often been interesting characters, and some have become more popular than the main protagonists they were intended to supplement. While Sam does suffer from Captain Morality syndrome, throwing 'sidekick' at him isn't relevant.

Date: 2017-02-16 11:13 pm (UTC)
katefan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] katefan
"That's pretty reductionist. Sidekicks have often been interesting characters, and some have become more popular than the main protagonists they were intended to supplement."

Yes, some sidekicks have, but Sam isn't one of them. At least that's my opinion. He's always just been...there. Painting him in red, white and blue and giving him the shield hasn't made him any more compelling. At least in my opinion.

"While Sam does suffer from Captain Morality syndrome, throwing 'sidekick' at him isn't relevant."

We'll just have to agree to disagree there.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:40 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
But then that's just you and not an opinion everyone shares.

Date: 2017-02-17 04:48 am (UTC)
raspberryrain: (roll eyes)
From: [personal profile] raspberryrain
Except for the times that Steve's book focused on Sam, which was a lot of them. Sam was a co-lead in the 1970's. The fact that he got pushed further and further into a generic supporting role from about 1980 on doesn't change the fact that he started as a heroic lead character type.

Spencer's not the greatest at writing either Captain America, but as a concept, Sam is totally a classic hero type.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:42 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Er, the wrestling issue did focus on Falcon. It's also not weird for a supporting cast to get the spotlight.

Date: 2017-02-16 07:50 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Politics in superhero comics can be tricky, even with Captain America. And it can seem odd, given how much of Marvel'a Silver Age revolved around Cold War militarism. And most of Iron Man's villains are Russian. Even the Mandarin wanted to "save" China from the Communists (so he could rule it instead).

Some suspect the Cold War being over (for now) is why we aren't getting a Black Widow movie any time soon.

Date: 2017-02-17 05:53 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
The problem here is that the people he's trying to reach already know how the system railroads black folk and non-white folk in general.

They'd all would probably prefer he'd get an actual lawyer.

Date: 2017-02-20 02:23 am (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Given that he's a) alive again and b) was, at least at one time, Elvin's guardian, I think it might be a good time for Night Thrasher to pay Sam a visit.

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