Date: 2017-03-11 03:09 am (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
A "Watchmen" ripoff right at the end of a fake holocaust story.

Stay classy, Mark.
Edited Date: 2017-03-11 03:10 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-11 03:34 am (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
A deliberate reference is not the same as a ripoff and this isn't the first time the Holocaust or World War II has been featured in such a fashion in fiction so I'm not sure what makes this particularly abhorrent.

Date: 2017-03-12 09:51 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
I'd rather just see a story about the camp's ACTUAL mass escapes than some ham-fisted "and Logan was in a Nazi death camp too! Despite that not making sense!" story. It's also not a reference, it's a direct lifting of the same line and circumstance trying for the exact same effect. That's a ripoff.
Edited Date: 2017-03-12 09:52 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-12 10:07 pm (UTC)
cyberghostface: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cyberghostface
A direct use of the same line, in particular a famous one, is a reference. Just as something like "We're not in Kansas anymore" in a modern film is not ripping off Wizard of Oz.
Edited Date: 2017-03-12 10:08 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-11 03:48 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
So, he could have killed the guards and helped hundreds to escape... but played games instead?

That's the problem with using superheroes to re-write history; the audience knows exactly what they are capable of. The "mysterious figure" actually needs to be mysterious. If it were a demon or an imp or a vampire, I could understand that a creature that accepts or ignores the cruelty to other humans because tormenting the officer gave it so much entertainment. This could make a really intriguing short story or fairy tale.

But to write "Pre-Wolverine Logan hangs out in a death camp amusing himself by psychologically tormenting young Nazi commanders and causing them to get poor job reviews before finally killing them" just really falls flat.

Date: 2017-03-11 10:23 am (UTC)
bizarrohulk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bizarrohulk
In fairness - this was before the claws and the adamantium skeleton, so being unkillable was really his only power at this point, and as Mr. Immortal has proved that's a power with serious limitations.

Date: 2017-03-12 02:51 am (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Did he not have bone claws at that point?

I guess I mean to say; was James Howlett retconned to have been born with bone claws when this was written?

Date: 2017-03-12 06:07 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
He was retconned with bone claws back in the 90s, I believe, with the original explanation was that Weapon X had some spare adamanitum lying around after they bonded it to his skeleton so they installed retracting claws into him as well. The Howlett thing was added in the 00s, which I think is when this was written.
From: [personal profile] 7dialsmystery
Its mentioned in the story. Its implied that Logan did help most of the prisoners escape but he stayed behind to kill the ones in charge of running it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_Sobibor
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Yeah, I read that part where Millar implied Logan's helping them escape. But that doesn't fly for me.

A) The commander's falling behind on executing the inmates and he's no longer using inmates to clear the ovens.
B) He can't find his tormentor because he hides amongst the inmates.
C) He has dozens of men available to shoot Logan when he does make an appearance.

So he can't kill the prisoners fast enough; they are escaping regularly, and he is not resorting to shooting them, despite having the means. It's comic book logic, which falls apart pretty quickly. I don't mind comic book logic, except when it tries to rewrite history.

The thing about Escape from Sobibor; it wasn't a slow trickle of escapees as implied by Millar's comment. It was a huge undertaking,with the knowledge that anyone who stayed behind would face reprisals, likely execution. So this idea of Wolverine setting up a steady stream of escapes just doesn't hold water.

Re: Sobibor is famous for a mass escape.

Date: 2017-03-14 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 7dialsmystery
Millar probably didn't think this through very well.

Date: 2017-03-12 06:14 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
I can see this story working with some versions of Jason Blood, but sticking around to mess with people until they go insane is really more of an Etrigan thing, really.

Date: 2017-03-13 03:02 pm (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Yeah, that's a much better choice. Inflicting months of psychological torture just doesn't fit Wolverine's "style".

Date: 2017-03-11 06:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] silicondream
I know Logan's healing factor worked even better before he got the adamantium, but how the hell did he survive this? They were beheading him? And if he did come back from that, why didn't they just finish the job next time? Converting living humans into piles of ash and personal effects was, well, kind of a Nazi specialty.

Also, it makes no sense that the guards wouldn't recognize Logan as the same man they killed before. You've got a bunch of sick, emaciated prisoners with shaved heads, and then you have the one incredibly ripped prisoner in perfect health with spiky Wolverine hair. He can't exactly blend in with the crowd.

Date: 2017-03-13 03:09 pm (UTC)
mastiff: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastiff
Yeah, this is why it failed for me. The commander confirms they have ovens, but they don't use them On the flip side, he comments on how few prisoners they've successfully executed, but only calls out his firing squads for unkillable prisoners.

I guess this all bothers me because it steals the story away from the real-life heroes who actually planned and executed the escape of 600 prisoners.

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