laughing_tree: (Default)
[personal profile] laughing_tree posting in [community profile] scans_daily

"IMO Maria Hill and USAgent are two of the best characters in comics when it comes to representing views that might be considered right wing. Both are characters who are unquestionably always attempting to do good, regardless of if you agree with their way of going about it. They are also two of my favorites to write, because there's a great challenge in writing heroes you like but may not personally agree with." -- Nick Spencer

Date: 2017-03-13 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
You'd think the Eric O'Grady-bot would bring up that time HYDRA goons blew fleshy-him's best friend's brains out right in front of him.
That seems like the sort of thing that would stick with you.
And, y'know, possibly make him not like HYDRA at all.

Date: 2017-03-13 11:37 pm (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
Black Ant was programmed to be extra evil.

Date: 2017-03-13 11:39 pm (UTC)
lamashtar: My crap writing senses are burning! (crapwriting)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
You know, I have no problem with conceptualizing HYDRA as a non-racist organization. Lots of organizations undergo similar evolutions. Its why Republicans no longer are the political party of the North and freeing slaves.

But the retcons are just clumsy. It's the "there are FIVE lights!" style of rewriting history, that blatantly contradicts it.

I do like the Two Idiots here. I feel there's a short story possible, where they get inserted into the El Dorado movie, or The Man Who Would Be King style of farce.

Date: 2017-03-14 01:26 am (UTC)
freezer: (Objection!)
From: [personal profile] freezer
Well, that's the thing: Marvel can't work that hard to make HYDRA their Nazi stand-ins, then try to backtrack just as hard. Well, they can't and expect the readers to go "Oh, okay."

Date: 2017-03-14 02:53 am (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
Well, you can't make Red Skull and Baron Zemo part of HYDRA leadership and not expect people to think "Nazis."

Date: 2017-03-14 02:56 pm (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
It's not anything in story, at least to me. It's the public "HYDRA aren't Nazis! What gave you that idea?" type statements like the one Marvel put out in response to the Magneto debacle. A simple "Give us time, you'll see where we're going" statement would've done far more good

Date: 2017-03-15 12:32 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
Motto. I mean, I get it: Hydra was originally just a classic '60s secret spy organization for SHIELD to fight. That was right on the label. And since it was the in early to mid 1960s, using organizations that had lots of escaped Nazis was simply a natural choice. You wanted guys who were bad and it was still very believable that these former Nazis would join your super-evil secret cabal....which is why Hydra has Baron Zemo, Baron Strucker and employs occasinally both the Red Skull and a host of nazi-esque imagery. They retconned them to have Nazi ties almost immediately, even if it has never been as explicit as it was in the CA movies.

I think this is mostly another case of the Marvel marketing team completely dropping the ball in a response to fan concerns.

Date: 2017-03-14 03:06 am (UTC)
lamashtar: "It's just like Hitlers!" (Hitler)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
What Freezer said. If Red Skull and Baron von Strucker are your leaders, logic says you must be a Nazi, whatever you're calling yourself.

Date: 2017-03-14 03:24 am (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
I think Strucker stopped considering himself a Nazi a while ago.

Date: 2017-03-14 04:07 am (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
In Hickman's Secret Warriors, he tells some Lemurians(?) that he would have killed them just for existing in his younger days, but now he just wants to rule the world.

Date: 2017-03-14 06:01 am (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
just because you stop calling yourself something like that, doesn't mean it's true though.

The current fascists may call themselves alt right, but that doesn't make them any less racist or nazi like. It's just a new label on the same old kind of evil.

Date: 2017-03-14 05:34 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
And the Secret Empire - they started as Hydra branches. On the other hand, AIM has always been presented as a mad scientist group, versus the Nazi imagery Hydra has had, and their most famous leader, MODOK, wasn't part of the Reich.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:57 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Except this isn't a retcon, it's a result of Kobik messing with Rogers history.

Date: 2017-03-15 03:43 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Thanks, didn't know they'd revealed why Steve was Hydra.

::later:: Was Hydra affected too? Doesn't say. I know its anal, but I like someone in comic to state "Hydra always was against all the senior Hydra member's Nazism."

Still hate the change. There's nothing wrong (for supervillains) in once being affiliated with Nazism. Its not as if it slows down the Hand (also worked with Nazis, but did it for the purity of eeeevil and love of the Beast rather than simple human prejudice and greed).

Date: 2017-03-15 04:36 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
I keep getting the impression that Marvel is trying to whitewash the Nazism from HYDRA's history. It makes sense that Magneto wouldn't want to work with them for that reason. Magneto had personal experience with Hydra being led by old Nazis who personally tortured Jews. People objected to Magneto joining Hydra for that reason.

Date: 2017-03-15 06:40 pm (UTC)
freezer: (Broke My brain)
From: [personal profile] freezer
Still not clear to me if Kobik messed with Steve's memories or with the timeline at large.

Date: 2017-03-17 02:26 pm (UTC)
kore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kore
Yeah, I'm confused. Elisa Sinclair only shows up in this story, right? She's not part of the history? But if she's part of how Kobik "fixed" Steve, why does she exist in the real world? Spencer was adamant this wasn't an AU or brainwashing, but in The Oath Steve also seems to have both sets of memories, which is a genre convention for someone who witnesses a big historical change. He's just convinced that "our" world is the aberration and he has to fix it.

BUT THEN, in Deadpool, there were the time-travelling Caps from the evil Hydra future, and Steve kills the last one because he threatens to warn everyone about the coming secret empire, even if he can't stop it, and then Coulson starts putting the pieces together in the safehouse. Which does sound like timeline alteration. Or maybe I'm just not getting it.

Date: 2017-03-28 12:02 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Because Kobik messed with reality, not just Steve's memories. Elisa showing up in the present is a reveal, that it wasn't just a mind wipe.

Date: 2017-03-28 12:00 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
The fact that Elisa Sinclair exists in the present day is proof that Kobik messed with the timeline, not just Steve's memories. Elisa wouldn't exist otherwise.

Date: 2017-03-13 11:49 pm (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
And so the bullshit continues, how I look forward to seeing this tank and Spencer leaves Marvel. Or Falcon dies
Edited Date: 2017-03-13 11:50 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-15 01:58 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Well neither is going to happen. I also don't understand why you'd want Falcon to die.

Date: 2017-03-15 02:34 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
We shall see, as to Falcon considering how Marvel killed Rhoadie it's not that unlikely.

Date: 2017-03-13 11:57 pm (UTC)
captainbellman: It Was A Boojum... (Default)
From: [personal profile] captainbellman
Dammit, Maria let so many people die in Bagalia! Though there again, at this point, what difference--

Date: 2017-03-14 12:35 am (UTC)
informationgeek: (djpon3)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
Now there's some clumsy, awkwardness by saying Hydra is not racist. Spencer, you are truly a master of words.

Also, I think Elisa Sinclair got some fashion advice from Lord Zedd. Seriously, I get Power Ranger vibes from her outfit.

Date: 2017-03-14 12:41 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Prrreeetty sure that's the same outfit Valentia De Fontaine wore during her time as Madame Hydra, during Hickman's Secret Warriors.
You know, when she turned out to have been a secret triple agent all along?

Date: 2017-03-14 12:43 am (UTC)
informationgeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] informationgeek
Never read it, but I stand by my statement looking at that costume. Still, I've seen worse female villain costumes this month. *coughemmafrostcough*

Date: 2017-03-14 02:34 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Female Batman in bikini (Bat-torso)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Its definitely Madame Hydra cosplay. But original comment comparing it to Lord Zedd still applies!

Date: 2017-03-14 05:42 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
If Elisa Sinclair really wanted to convince people Hydra's not racist, maybe she should have brought one of her non-white Hydra agents.

Date: 2017-03-15 02:03 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Yeah, it really doesn't help disprove the notion that HYDRA aren't a racist organization if they are all white!

Date: 2017-03-14 02:16 am (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
""IMO Maria Hill and USAgent are two of the best characters in comics when it comes to representing views that might be considered right wing. Both are characters who are unquestionably always attempting to do good, regardless of if you agree with their way of going about it. They are also two of my favorites to write, because there's a great challenge in writing heroes you like but may not personally agree with.""

Man fuck you. Maria Hill is a Statist. She is not right or left wing. She is an anti-Libertarian.

USAgent is a caricature of the right wing. He is about as right wing as Stephen Colbert. Blue Adam is right wing. Hawkman is right wing. If you can't see the difference I don't even know what to tell you.

Date: 2017-03-14 02:46 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
Would you say that Maria Hill and Henry Peter Gyrich are similar, in a 'my country, right or wrong' way?

Date: 2017-03-14 03:03 am (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
I always viewed Hill as as apolitical as a patriot could get. She believes in "My country, right or wrong" and doing what ever she feels is necessary to protect it.

Glyrich, OTHO, is definitely the type who'd view "American Exceptionalism" as a universal truth, rather than an ideology.

Date: 2017-03-14 03:13 am (UTC)
lamashtar: Shun the nonbelievers! Shun-na! (Default)
From: [personal profile] lamashtar
While googling to find his name, I found a comment that suggested Gyrich's character is to represent the writer's view of government itself. Sometimes Gyrich is a megalomaniac liasing with the Hellfire Club to buy Sentinels, and sometimes he's devoted to his job to the point he couldn't be at his father's deathbed. A Leo McGarry type that gets divorced because he believes that his job IS more important than any personal matter.

Date: 2017-03-14 06:16 am (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
Blue Marvel can't be right wing, he's a super-scientist. That means he doesn't ignore scientific data :D

(I'm only half kidding. I've never seen anything that indicated his political leanings one way or another, but I need to go read Mighty Avengers, it's in my backlog.)

Date: 2017-03-15 02:05 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
When did Blue Marvel state he's right wing?

Date: 2017-03-14 03:26 am (UTC)
lordultimus: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lordultimus
Well if Hydra isn't racist, I guess that explains Magneto and Doc Ock joining them in time for Secret Empire.

Oh, wait, no it doesn't.
Edited Date: 2017-03-14 03:26 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-28 12:06 am (UTC)
thehood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehood
Doc Ock made it clear he's only interested in their resources, so he can take down Parker industries. I think he does plan on betraying them eventually.

Date: 2017-03-14 06:01 am (UTC)
mastermahan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mastermahan
Making Hydra defensive about racism could be interesting if it became about the dodges organized hate groups use to deny they preach racism. Say they claimed to be racial realists, or that they stood for racial pride. That could be interesting, and would actually be relevant to the real world and how hate usually works here.

Declaring that Hydra is an evil fascist group that wants to take over the world - but totally aren't racist in their evil! - is silly and unconvincing. Hydra declaring they're not racist is meaningless, because racist groups hardly ever bill themselves as racist.

Date: 2017-03-14 06:29 am (UTC)
deathcrist2000: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deathcrist2000
So basically, they're Nick Land except they're using racists as a means of world domination instead of pushing humanity to evolve face tentacles and just as convincingly not racist?

Date: 2017-03-14 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
I remember Doug Walker, in his reaction to 'Get Out', mentioned how the film satirised how being labeled an '-ist' of any kind almost completely dehumanises someone and shuts down whatever argument they try to make, expressing fascination with how the villains of the film justified themselve through their attitudes of "We're monsters, but we're not *racist* monsters".


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