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[personal profile] laughing_tree posting in [community profile] scans_daily

"1. Cassandra 2. Dick 3. Bruce 4. Damian 5. Kate 6. Helena 7. Jason 8. Duke 9. Stephanie 10. Tim" -- Tom King, ranking fighters

Date: 2017-03-14 11:46 pm (UTC)
nyadnar17: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nyadnar17
Whatever else I am really happy to see Bane's old gang back. I really hated that those guys were left by the wayside after the first arc.

Date: 2017-03-15 12:02 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Really? Zombie, Bird and.... ummm Trogg, was it? Spooky guy, animal trainer guy and... I honestly have no idea what Trogg did that made him anything worth remembering. They always struck me as prime cannon fodder.

In his first appearace as a lone agent back in the 90's I could sort of see him having dispoable backup, but he's the lord of an island of criminals and yet these three were his picks taking for down Batman, Catwoman and the Batclan?

Date: 2017-03-15 12:39 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
If nothing else, they've got that " dark echo of Doc Savage's assistants " thing going for them (Bane having been " ..Chuck Dixon [coming] up with the idea for an evil 'Doc Savage'.. ").
Edited Date: 2017-03-15 12:41 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-15 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] donnblake
Huh. Now I'm imagining Bane constantly humming, but because he's evil, he's humming In the Hall of the Mountain King and now it's stuck in my head.


Date: 2017-03-16 01:09 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
" I'm going to-o break the Bat/yes I am/yes I am.. "

Date: 2017-03-14 11:58 pm (UTC)
chalicother: Chalicothere (Default)
From: [personal profile] chalicother
Damian is way too high to be put on that list. Unless you are watching the animated films, I feel as if in the comics, everyone above him except Stephanie, Duke, and maybe Tim could beat him. Also Bruce and Dick need to be switched.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:38 am (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
Yes, and thank you. The only one he got right was Cass, and Damian would be that high, maybe even higher...if he wasn't a 4 ft tall pre-teen

Date: 2017-03-15 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
I mean I respect that Tim's relies more on his intelligence than fighting skills to be effective but to be ranked even lower than Duke who's been doing this for a few months at best? That's just harsh.

Date: 2017-03-15 08:17 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Agreed, and Tim has been fighting people actively trying to kill him for a LOT longer than Duke.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:44 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Seems like they got ranked for future potential, rather then current levels. I can absolutely believe that one day Dick will surpass Bruce, that Damian will develop enough body mass to get fourth place, and that eventually all the Batclan members will surpass Tim because Tim is the most cerebral of the group (though by no means weak). But right now, Bruce is definitely stronger than Dick, Damian's potential is held back by the body of a pre-teen, and Duke has been training for like 3 months.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:47 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I'm not sure I see Tim, who did train under Lady Shiva, and learn some techniques that even Bruce didn't know about whilst training in Paris (From a martial arts sensei who lived there, just clarifying that before anyone gets any ideas about what else Tim might have studied in the Pariain underworld though I hear he does a MEAN can-can routine) would rank below Duke and Steph.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:54 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
Maybe not Steph (as the daughter of the Cluemaster, it would be cool if she developed a style like some kind of triskster. Like, she isn't that powerful a fighter, but she can defeat the bad guys with craftiness. "Spoiler" is even the perfect name for such a character!). But I can totally see Duke eventually getting stronger than Tim, especially if he follows a similar training regimen (who is to say Duke won't be trained by Shiva at some point too?)

Date: 2017-03-15 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zachbeacon
It always bothered me that the best fighter is a tiny teenage girl. I'd much rather it be her mom or Richard Dragon. Damien is too high for the same reason.

On the other end... I don't mind Tim being last since he's more trickster than fighter and Steph would be awesome in the real world but she lives in a crazy fictional one.

Date: 2017-03-15 11:58 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I'd presume that Shiva and Richard Dragon aren't included in this list because they're not Batclan heroes.

Date: 2017-03-15 12:26 am (UTC)
cygnia: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cygnia
Naming the tower after Dave McKean is a nice touch...

Date: 2017-03-15 01:02 am (UTC)
bj_l: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bj_l
Is... Is one of those people tied up Dark Ranger the Batman of Australia from Batman Inc.?

Date: 2017-03-15 04:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aperturedreams
Nah, that's just Duke.

Date: 2017-03-15 04:41 am (UTC)
bj_l: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bj_l
Oh. Not going to lie, I'm a little disappointed. But its nice to see someone from the We Are Robin series sticking around.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:36 am (UTC)
tigerkaya: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tigerkaya
Bane you already lost this fight, your exposing your tubes out into the open!
Seriously your like a boss fight with that glowing green tubes sticking out.

I still don't know what Batfans see in you Bane, your overrated villain that no one treats seriously not even in the BTAS. The majority of cartoons have you pegged as a mindless meat heat. Face it D.C. should kill you off whatever stories you had left have been told, this is just rehash.
Edited Date: 2017-03-15 01:38 am (UTC)

Date: 2017-03-15 01:54 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I will always appreciate BTAS Bane for capturing college age Robin first time out and leaving him half-undressed in a deathtrap, but I acknowledge that that might not be the sort of thing everyone appreciates.

I do agree though, every time someone in the Batfamily draws a batarang when he's on panel, I expect little videogame targeting markers to appear on the tubes.

Though I have to assume that he's long since done away with them as functional things and just keeps them as a now-meaningless distraction that the heroes will focus on, and he switched to a more efficient, and concealed, method of feeding him venom ages ago.
From: [personal profile] chortles81
Even if her actual hair style under the cowl may vary.

Date: 2017-03-15 02:22 am (UTC)
kamino_neko: Tedd from El Goonish Shive. Drawn by Dan Shive, coloured by Kamino Neko. (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
Eesh, that ranking...

Cass at #1 is certainly undeniable.

But Dick above Bruce and Kate? Never. Probably not even Helena. Damian's too high, too, though I wouldn't put him as far back as the other commentators. Even with Jay, maybe.

In the bottom half...Duke's a relative newbie. He could probably take Steph, who he has a physical and motivation advantage over and similar experience and training. But Tim's not that much smaller, is more experienced, and has 'ridiculously clever' as a primary character trait.

My thoughts on the ranking of those 10...

1 Cass
2 Bruce
3 Kate
4 Helena
5 Dick
6 Jason/Damian
8 Tim
9 Duke
10 Steph

Date: 2017-03-15 07:47 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I'm surprised by putting Helena or Kate over Dick, who is much more established. For me, it would be:

1. Cass/Bruce
2. Dick
3. Kind of the rest.

Date: 2017-03-15 11:17 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
I'm with you on Cass, Bruce and Duke, but with Lucean on Dick.

With his Flying Grayson background he's been physically conditioned from a young age - the youngest of the kids to be so, second only to Damian, who was swordfighting at three.

So it'd be Dick over Kate, and then over Helena - unless you want to tack on a runner by making it mean Earth-2 Helena Wayne and not Bertinelli, in which case Damian needs to be higher on that list since they have the same claim to rank of being trained from a young age (she by E2 Batman, he by Talia). It's like that sliding logjam puzzle game.

Date: 2017-03-15 01:55 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Kate learned military combat skills, Helena learned combat skills from one of the the worlds most dangerous spy organisations. I'd probably put Helena over Kate there.

Date: 2017-03-15 03:42 pm (UTC)
kamino_neko: Tedd from El Goonish Shive. Drawn by Dan Shive, coloured by Kamino Neko. (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
This is exactly why I rank Helena lower than Kate. Where Kate's training would be focused on skills used in actual combat, Helena's would have been on espionage.

Helena's probably deadlier, but this is a ranking of fighters, which, to me, says a standup fight, which Kate would be better trained for.

Date: 2017-03-15 03:57 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I wonder who would get more training in the sort of melee combat these days in the real world (Genuine question, as I have no knowledge of the current training regimes offered by military and espionage type operations.

Back in the fictional realms we did see that the sort of situations Spyral's field agents (as Helena was) went into could get very physically oriented indeed, so I wouldn't presume their level of hand to hand was any less than a trained marine would have.

Date: 2017-03-15 07:30 am (UTC)
joetuss: Ali (Default)
From: [personal profile] joetuss
Sorry, but Richard John Grayson is kicking Kate's head in. He's widely known as being second only to Bruce.

I got Cass #1 Bruce#2 Dick#3 Helena#4 Kate#5 Jason #6 Damian #7 Tim#8 Duke #9 Steph #10

Date: 2017-03-15 07:50 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
It is quite petty of me, I know, but I don't know why it annoys me so much that the main writer of Batman is putting out lists where he makes it clear that Bruce is the third best fighter in the Bat-Clan. Not to speak of some other confounding aspects of the list.

Don't get me wrong, these are subjective lists and if the writer of Nightwing or Cass's imaginary comic was putting out that list, I would disagree, but it would be more of a friendly 'opinions be opinions'. Here, it instead feels that aren't you supposed to be writing Batman, the biggest badass in the DCU?

Date: 2017-03-15 08:27 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I don't really have a problem with Bruce not being the best fighter because that's not what makes him Batman (or not JUST what makes him Batman), he's not the best at ANYTHING, but he's the cumulative best at EVERYTHING. Aside from detective skills he sacrificed specialisation for generalisation.

Cass is the best fighter, but she hasn't got the range of skills and experience that Bruce (and Dick) do

Date: 2017-03-15 11:51 am (UTC)
lucean: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucean
I kind of agree. As said to me, what just irritated me was that this is the main guy writing Batman stating that Batman is number three on the Bat-clan list, which just irks me. It is petty, I realize. Even the Cass discussion I understand, but putting Dick above Bruce?

It is, for me, the same as if Tomasi suddenly started throwing out how Supergirl is clearly more powerful than Superman.

Date: 2017-03-15 02:26 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thezmage
I may be misremembering, but I thought "Supergirl is more powerful than Superman) was the status quo for awhile. Which I don't see the problem with, because Superman is more than just a pair of muscles, his mind and experience and basic decency all add to the character in ways that pure muscle would not

Date: 2017-03-15 02:34 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
That was clarified (for the one we got out of Superman/Batman) with " she's not stronger, she just holds back less ".

Date: 2017-03-15 11:49 am (UTC)
zapbiffpow: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zapbiffpow
Tim's my favorite Robin, but I actually have no problem placing him somewhere on the bottom half/third of the fighters list. His most memorable victories have been him using his brain, if I remember right:

- Lady Shiva and the chocolates
- Ra's Al Ghul and the all-points attack on Bruce's loved ones
- Tim re-targeting the Colony drones
- Even that'Sleigh Ride' issue, where he Marx Brothers-quoted his way out of.

Not the exact bottom, though. King may have been trying to spare us Steph fan's feelings (I still miss Batgirl: Reborn), but I think this case allows for sense over sentiment.

Date: 2017-03-15 02:01 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And of course, by the time we're talking about fighters on the level of the batclan, we're dealing with fractions of nanoseconds in terms of reaction time the like,

A the top of the scale, and both acknowledging that Cass is the better fighter than either of them, Bruce and Dick are probably evenly matched these days (especially after Dick's tenure as Batman and Agent 37) with Dick being younger, faster and more agile whilst Bruce is more experienced and stronger (I would see him training to sacrifice a little agility for more brute force, Dick wouldn't because both play to their strengths)

The lower end of the list is all over the place though, IMHO.

Date: 2017-03-15 03:41 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
Not to mention he straight up forgot Barbara.

Date: 2017-03-15 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Or she doesn't make the top 10

Date: 2017-03-16 12:00 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
That seems very unlikely in a list which includes Steph and Duke... who are both newbies at this, and Barbara isn't.

Date: 2017-03-16 12:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] long_silence
Barbara is even more cerebral than Tim and doesn't have the military or espionage training that Kate or Helena have.
Factor in the fact that even in nu52 continuity she spent at least a year as a paraplegic and not fighting. She has had to spend time rebuilding her muscle mass and relearning her skills after she got out of the wheelchair

I could buy her not quite being as good a fighter as the rest but making up for it with her gadgets and other skills

Date: 2017-03-20 08:06 pm (UTC)
coldfury: (Default)
From: [personal profile] coldfury
No, I'm pretty sure the author said he forgot her when he made the list.

There's *no* way she ranks under Steph or Duke. She's one of the most experienced members of the Bat Family.

Date: 2017-03-15 09:55 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (batman--robin (no!!!))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
I'm okay with Cass and Dick as 1 and 2. I agree with your assessment of Bruce and Dick's skills. Gradually Dick will surpass Bruce, but Bruce will always have his strengths.

I see Dick as someone able to integrate a variety of skills (acrobatics, agility, theatricality, detective skills, and his ability to lead and connect with people) who will be able to take the pieces and make a whole that surpasses Batman, except Bruce will always be the Bat template in terms of sheer ability to scare the crap out of badasses. And no one is as single-minded as Bruce Wayne! :)

Date: 2017-03-16 01:51 am (UTC)
jaxjyls: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaxjyls
I kinda 100% agree with King's list

Date: 2017-03-16 09:55 am (UTC)
dc2houseofmystery: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dc2houseofmystery
Its interesting that there are certain panels that are aping Capullo's style in this arc. Bird up there for one, and in the latest issue when SPOILERS



Riddler appears for a few panels, he's so Capullo it took me out of the plot for a few seconds. Maybe a conscious decision by the inker?


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